Shortcomings in flight instruction?

[deek]

I had a crappy primary instructor who never showed up on time, but since he didn't care about the rules our school had about no actual soft field landings, he actually took me to one and it was a blast, I want to do more.

My instrument instructor was awesome in getting me to do some long XCs, like from Houston to Louisiana for some gator tail, and to Roswell NM to see what it's like to sit in a small plane for 8 hours a day and do a bunch of approaches and crew resource work.

Now I wish I had some more scenario based stuff with emergencies, weather, systems and who know's what else thrown in. I sometimes feel that even though I have yet to get my comm single, I have plateaued a bit and really just burning fuel waiting to get up to around 235 to being my complex.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

This is good stuff.

I was lucky enough to go to a community college that had instructors that were real pilots. I've learned from a lear captain, back country forest service flier, weather mod, one old salt of a pilot, and a naval commander so I've been extremely lucky in my training.

 

[deek]

This is good stuff.

I was lucky enough to go to a community college that had instructors that were real pilots. I've learned from a lear captain, back country forest service flier, weather mod, one old salt of a pilot, and a naval commander so I've been extremely lucky in my training.

man, if you could get all those guys in one room for some telling of some war stories and some ground school, I'd pay.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

man, if you could get all those guys in one room for some telling of some war stories and some ground school, I'd pay.

We only had to pay for ground school there too. Pre/Post-flight was all free, I saved so much money there.

One flight I vividly remember was with the naval pilot. He asked if I've ever done a turn and made the compass stay in place. I said that I haven't, so he put the Citabria in a 90 degree bank and brought it around probably 720 degrees in the turn and said "see the compass didn't even move off the E". I said "All I saw was the stick go back then I was looking at my lap the rest of the time." I've never pulled so many G's before and my neck was not ready for it haha.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

BTW - Weather permitting the T hawk may come to Spokane for my short
visit at a Fire Truck Company out on Trent. (not far from KSFF)

I wish I could be there I won't be able to work until after new years

 

[jrh]

Something I'd like to add to this discussion, is that it's impossible to prep a new pilot for anything that might come their way. You could spend 500+ hours teaching somebody and not even begin to scratch the surface of all the scenarios they'll need to deal with in a lifetime of flying.

It'd be nice if every pilot could handle every emergency, weather scenario, and unusual pressure that arises, but reality is that's not going to happen. The best we can do as instructors is to avoid the major pitfalls, while instilling attitudes and instincts that will help the student get through the rest.

 

[Blackhawk]

I would say the biggest problem I have seen is pilots being taught the PTS. I am not disparaging the PTS and I do think that pilots should know it. Yet the PTS should not be the lesson plan. It's kind of like some schools now that teach the standardized tests. Awful way to teach. The school my kids go to does not do this, yet the kids score above average on the practical tests.
Some flying examples...
1. Pilots not being taken to busy airspace. They get the minimum landings at a towered airport and that's it. Moving the sticks (or yoke), is only part of flying. The other part is decision making and can only be gained from experience. Going to the training area on every flight does little.
2. Pilots not being taught equipment on the airplane. Such as private pilots not knowing how to use DME or multiple radios. I even flew with one pilot in his 210 who did not know how to use the comm. function of his GPS, in spite of 15 hours of dual required for insurance and a recent flight review. Or an IFR pilot not being taught how to use an ADF.
3. Pilots not receiving ground. Some things are taught as an afterthought prior to the check ride... such as performance planning, weather... things that kill a large number of GA pilots and passangers.
4. Pilots not being taught how to really fly the airplane. The purpose of stall training is not to learn how to set up a stall. The purpose is to learn to recognize stall scenarios, the onset of a a stall, and proper recovery. I have student pilots go through stalls in every configuration and scenario I can think of... full flap power on... power off stalls with no engine... power on stalls with turns... etc.

 

[Blackhawk]

Shortcomings in flight instruction?
My paycheck....who didn't see that coming?
------

I'd really say weather flying though.
Ice/Thunderstorms/LOW IFR (you're going to your alternate son)
'Twould be the bees knees if we had hours of the commercial 141 syllabus dedicated to that.

So where did you get your training? Someplace where instructors were payed well?

 

[Blackhawk]

Amen to that.

As for what I feel is usually a short coming: power-out landings. I see plenty of people practice emergency approaches out over fields, but hardly ever at a concrete place where the student can the plane all the down.

Same question... where did you get your training? Someplace where instructors were well payed?

 

[shdw]

The best we can do as instructors is to avoid the major pitfalls, while instilling attitudes and instincts that will help the student get through the rest.

:clap: Add: Teach good management so when new problems arise they at least have some tools to tackle that situation. Most problems a PPL can get into can be handled with simple use of all resources and basic management IMO.

 

[PFGiardino]

Scenario based training is great since it teaches the student how to evaluate risks based on their own skill. That's a skill set they can take anywhere, long after I'm done with them. It takes their mindset from "well, my instructor said..." to "well, let's look at the risks involved..."

More IMC training. That 3.0 should be in the clouds. Teach them how to ask for an ILS.

Next is slow flight. I don't want the student to just know how to fly slowly, I want them to be comfortable doing it. They'll need that comfort for any proficient landing/takeoff/go-around, especially once they're done with the 152/172. There was an accident in NC in May 2007 that's always stuck in my mind... a Doctor, his Doctor friend, and Mrs. Doctor were killed when their 400 came in too quickly to a short length, higher altitude runway.

 

[Douglas]

So where did you get your training? Someplace where instructors were payed well?

It wasn't until my commercial training that I realized that CFIs were not salaried.
My private/instrument instructor was salaried for 30 some plus flight/ground hours/Medical benefits...but I can't believe how little those wages were for hours.

Students don't know what is going on when the jump into the game, and it is not their fault, most would pay more per hour and I believe that. I don't know anybody that is taking instruction at our shop do due to our CFI price. Yeah once in a blue moon a guy will call comparing prices, but it is rare.


Edit: I know you are not suggesting CFI pay shouldn't be raised because of what you have said in other posts. So what are you barking at?

 

[Roger, Roger]

Teach them how to ask for an ILS.

I personally think that's a terrible idea.

The time to prevent VFR into IMC accidents is before the flight takes off. We need to teach our students how to detect that possibility before they launch and how to keep from ever getting there. They want to learn to fly in clouds? Great, let's sell them an instrument rating. I see a VFR private pilot who thinks they know how to do an ILS as an accident waiting to happen.

 

[MikeD]

Amen to that.

As for what I feel is usually a short coming: power-out landings. I see plenty of people practice emergency approaches out over fields, but hardly ever at a concrete place where the student can the plane all the down.

(I posted this in another thread, but it ties-in exactly with what you mention here)

I did so [landed on rural roads, etc] during my PPL training in the middle of nowhere AZ in the '80s during forced landing practice. Also did gravel strips and a couple of times, a canal bank access road. CFI was of the mindset of "if thats where you pick, take it to a logical conclusion then. My contract with you is that I won't allow you to get so far that I can't recover us safely." His deal was that anyone can spiral down to 500 AGL and recover, but if they pick a place where the plane can safely touchdown, then make it happen.......the 500 AGL to the ground is where you are the hero or the zero.

Made for good training.

It's the same in helos when we practice Sim Engine Failures.......better pick a place that works, because the simulated failure could very well become real, come recovery time.

 

[PFGiardino]

I see a VFR private pilot who thinks they know how to do an ILS as an accident waiting to happen.

You make an excellent point. I see it as this... if after all their training (which includes the dangers of flight into IMC, the limitations of VFR flying, etc), a VFR pilot still willingly violates the rules and ends up in IMC because "they think they can," that's on them. Their invulnerability/anti-authority will likely catch up to them someday, in some way. The shame would be that I did not adaquately diagnose their bad attitude. If, after they thoroughly preflight with due care taken yet still come upon IMC (forecasts and weather reports can't always cover all), I'd like to have given them something they can save themselves and their passangers with.

Compare it to "Of course you're not going to drive through the drug dealers' neighborhood at midnight, but should you somehow end up in it, remember that there's a tire iron in the trunk."

 

[Roger, Roger]

You make an excellent point. I see it as this... if after all their training (which includes the dangers of flight into IMC, the limitations of VFR flying, etc), a VFR pilot still willingly violates the rules and ends up in IMC because "they think they can," that's on them. Their invulnerability/anti-authority will likely catch up to them someday, in some way. The shame would be that I did not adaquately diagnose their bad attitude. If, after they thoroughly preflight with due care taken yet still come upon IMC (forecasts and weather reports can't always cover all), I'd like to have given them something they can save themselves and their passangers with.

Yeah, but think of all the other things that go into flying an ILS besides asking for it and flying the needles-NOTAMS, charts, etc- I just don't think that teaching them what they would need to know is practical within the confines of a private syllabus.

 

[PFGiardino]

Yeah, but think of all the other things that go into flying an ILS besides asking for it and flying the needles-NOTAMS, charts, etc- I just don't think that teaching them what they would need to know is practical within the confines of a private syllabus.

Exactly. Therein lies the beauty. They wouldn't know how to go about doing it by themselves, but if in dire straits, they can fess up to ATC, ask for the nearest ILS or VFR Wx, and ATC can either tell them there's VFR somewhere close, or give them a vector and read the chart instructions to them.

It's a start... of course we're not going to get into the whole 90/120 side, false glideslope, approach lighting, etc. They just know how to fly it whilst having their hand held by ATC, should the excrement hit the fan.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Exactly. Therein lies the beauty. They wouldn't know how to go about doing it by themselves, but if in dire straits, they can fess up to ATC, ask for the nearest ILS or VFR Wx, and ATC can either tell them there's VFR somewhere close, or give them a vector and read the chart instructions to them.

It's a start... of course we're not going to get into the whole 90/120 side, false glideslope, approach lighting, etc. They just know how to fly it whilst having their hand held by ATC, should the excrement hit the fan.

I still don't think it's worth it.

 

[jrh]

Students don't know what is going on when the jump into the game, and it is not their fault, most would pay more per hour and I believe that.

Good point. Most customers are oblivious to the economics of flying, especially when they're starting out.

I don't know anybody that is taking instruction at our shop do due to our CFI price. Yeah once in a blue moon a guy will call comparing prices, but it is rare.

Funny you should say that. I field calls and questions on a regular basis from potential customers who are directly comparing prices. It's a tough one to answer because I know our closest competitors are quoting $4k-6k, which we simply can't compete with.

Our standard answer used to be, "About $9-10k start to finish, and we have several options for payment (financing, discounts for paying in advance, etc)." Then we'd encourage them to visit us in person, or if they were already in our office, we hoped that they'd see the benefits of our nicer equipment, full time, experienced instructors, etc.

For some reason we were losing out on a lot of the "price shopper" business no matter what we said.

Then we changed our approach to be more blunt. "$9-10k, which you'll find is more than pretty much every other school in this area. But we aren't trying to be the cheapest place, we're trying to give you the best bang for your buck. You said a minute ago that you want to fly your family on trips to Dallas and Denver. That's exactly what we tailor the training to. A person can get *a certificate* for $5k, but one can't cut that many corners and come out at the end comfortable taking 500 mile trips with their family."

We can go on to talk about being trained over technology, flying in busy airspace, scenario based training, learning from an experienced instructor, etc...basically, going beyond the minimums to pass a checkride and truly feel proficient, like everything this thread has talked about.

When we frame it from this perspective, we've finally seen the "Aha! That's the difference!" light come on in the customer's head. It's not like we close every deal now, but we've seen a significantly higher number of these people choose us after explaining training in these terms.

 

[Blackhawk]

(I posted this in another thread, but it ties-in exactly with what you mention here)

I did so [landed on rural roads, etc] during my PPL training in the middle of nowhere AZ in the '80s during forced landing practice. Also did gravel strips and a couple of times, a canal bank access road. CFI was of the mindset of "if thats where you pick, take it to a logical conclusion then. My contract with you is that I won't allow you to get so far that I can't recover us safely." His deal was that anyone can spiral down to 500 AGL and recover, but if they pick a place where the plane can safely touchdown, then make it happen.......the 500 AGL to the ground is where you are the hero or the zero.

Made for good training.

It's the same in helos when we practice Sim Engine Failures.......better pick a place that works, because the simulated failure could very well become real, come recovery time.

I do the same for my students prior to their solo cross country. We fly into narrow dirt strips so they are comfortable landing on dirt roads if necessary.