SFO - we are in training, mistakes will happen

One of my number one rules at work is to never get chippy like this on the Radio.... The absolute last thing I need is to end up on Youtube so a bunch of people who have no idea what its like to sit in my chair can tell me how bad I am at my job.

The above comments about working in the FAA are unfortunately true, and we're reaching a complete breaking point in this agency.

Our union isnt fighting for the average controller. We keep extending this garbage contract, we arent addressing 5-10 years of forced 6 day work weeks in a real way, which in my personal opinion would be allowing shifts to be short staffed and implementing massive, massive delays nationwide to reflect the lack of investment that has been made in the ATC workforce over the last 20 years. Things will only continue to get worse as more experienced controllers leave, and COVID signoffs and people even junior to them become more and more of the workforce. Something like 30% of the agency is about to be eligible to retire within 3 years. Yes, 44 years after Reagan fired all of us, the Agency has still somehow not recovered. Our union just endorsed Sean Duffy's plan to consolidate the ARTCC's, and claims to have no idea what that means, whos moving, or where we are getting sent to.

I guess my point is that times are tough out here, try and share some grace with your controller if they lose it. They should know better....but alot of the stresses are starting to pile up and boil over. Youve got controllers working 6 day weeks, with 0 ability to ever transfer home, and also 0 hope to ever buy a house in the community that they are serving. Its just sad what this career field has become for the newer people. Maybe someday the union will wake up....but I doubt it.
 
sorrygottarunway said:
Is this the same one that yelled at the D crew for taking too much time for a last minute runway swap?
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I had to look this up in my logbook, but back in '23 when everyone here was talking about "that" incident I had the exact same thing happen to me a day or two or three later in SFO. Here's how I immortalized it in my logbook: "Got the last min runway switch the JC folks were talking about this week. Nope. We have a robust procedure for a runway change. Just held short."

I don't know if I have a point other than JC crowdsourcing does work. And always slow down.
 
jhugz said:
You guys are under payed and over worked with an administration that is doing way more harm than good. I feel for you guys/gals.

I just had it out with an Indy Center controller that was trying to get us to do unsafe stuff with our airplane and then proceeded to chew out my FO. I got on the radio and shut it down but it seems to be more of a common occurrence unfortunately.
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I got laid into by a controller in IND because I wouldn’t fly through a large area of pulsating magenta on the radar and got a guilt trip for not taking it.

The controller said the previous aircraft didn’t report anything, I asked who and when, and that report was literally two hours old. I know they had traffic to sequence that night, but I don’t feel like getting my windscreen busted-out and my radome crushed-in pretending like I’m Ernest Gann or something.
 
ClearedForOption said:
I had to look this up in my logbook, but back in '23 when everyone here was talking about "that" incident I had the exact same thing happen to me a day or two or three later in SFO. Here's how I immortalized it in my logbook: "Got the last min runway switch the JC folks were talking about this week. Nope. We have a robust procedure for a runway change. Just held short."

I don't know if I have a point other than JC crowdsourcing does work. And always slow down.
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I've been doing a lot of SFO lately, and every departure I've made sure the field conditions template (which local station operations and our load controllers use to indicate the runways that are initially uplinked to the airplane) accurately reflects the runway and conditions in use. It is not always the case; a burst of irritation has come with the D-8 (it's D-10 now, but whatever) message showing 1L/R and 28L but no 28R when the 28s were most affirmatively in use.

It's a lot easier/a lot more "oh no, that's never happened to me in San Francisco before, anyway" when you don't have to send out for the data, or at least I think it is.
 
I’m operating the aircraft through challenging weather and you’re watching my aircraft on the ground on a computer screen in an AC office.

I felt like 3 years ago I didn’t have to mention that, but idk if things have changed in the last couple of years but I’ve unfortunately had to make that distinction more often than not lately.

Again I know that the ATC’er are getting railroaded lately but they also got to remember what’s really happening on the other side of the dot no matter the external pressures they’re dealing with.

The chances of them getting dead or bodily harm is exponentially less than what I’m dealing with on the other side of the scope. Again this is not a us vs. them post, but I’ve noticed an alarming amount of pushing tin lately and I hope the Swiss Cheese can prevent the next big incident/accident with some of the cavalier attitude I’ve been seeing on the other side of the scope in certain instances.
 
derg said:
I know in my aircraft there's no "be ready for an immediate runway change" strategy.

If I gotta wait, I gotta wait. Or they can assign a runway on the clearance.
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Sure, but I'm also going to go be prepared for it, and not bury my head in the sand and pretend it doesn't happen, if you'll pardon the expression. That starts with making sure the field conditions template is accurate (grumble), so I have a WDR and TDU aboard and uplinked already for those runways. We still have to do all the things, but at least step 1's done. (No idea how Mega-Fifi does it, we're happily banging our rocks together with our paper WDR and analog instrumentation taps speed bug by one knot or so).

Perhaps it's the "I was based there and therefore I am used to it [and also I know where Mount Diablo is]" showing.
 
Hopefully we got the additional uplink, but the process in the Trash Panda isn’t altogether very linear, AND we’ve got to run a separate “Runway Change Items” checklist which takes some time.

If you’re super proficient, which few are because the average pilot might fly a leg a month from a control seat if they’re lucky, it takes easily over five minutes. In addition to someone needing to go “heads down”.

If they did all this while taxiing then blasted off, I’d roast them like Kenny Roger’s on a line check! Ha! ;)
 
derg said:
Hopefully we got the additional uplink, but the process in the Trash Panda isn’t altogether very linear, AND we’ve got to run a separate “Runway Change Items” checklist which takes some time.

If you’re super proficient, which few are because the average pilot might fly a leg a month from a control seat if they’re lucky, it takes easily over five minutes. In addition to someone needing to go “heads down”.

If they did all this while taxiing then blasted off, I’d roast them like Kenny Roger’s on a line check! Ha! ;)
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I'll time it the next time they invariably do it to me and report back.

Edit: I would hate to do it with four pilots. Three's a great number. IYKYK
 
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jhugz said:
I felt like 3 years ago I didn’t have to mention that, but idk if things have changed in the last couple of years but I’ve unfortunately had to make that distinction more often than not lately.
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The trainees that we are getting recently are less and less coming from an Aviation background and more just random people that found the job on Reddit or heard about it on Tik Tok. With the way the two career fields have gone since COVID, no reason for anyone interested in aviation to pursue ATC over flying.

Theres about to be another big retirement bubble coming too, so lots of experience leaving the scopes. Its going to get worse before it gets even worse, unfortunately.

I used to tell all my trainees to take advantage of the FAM flights and to go ride a jumpseat through our airspace, to see whats actually happening when you pull guys off the SID/STAR, and just see the workload in the cockpit in general. The FAA took that program away during COVID claiming the airlines don't want us up there anymore, and then never brought it back. They're worried about the optics of facilities being critically staffed while a Controller goes on a free vacation to observe from the Flight Deck. So now probably the best way to get understanding of the other side of the mic is gone UFN.

Ive said on here before and I maintain that all airline pilots should be required to go sit for an hour in a busy TRACON or ARTCC, and all controllers should have to go ride through their airspace, like once a year or every other year. It would help so much and I know it will never happen. Just a shame
 
Right now our rates are capped at like 50% of normal due to all the…uh…issues. We are training and certifying on this level of traffic. When the FAA decides to remove the caps, there’s going to be quite a few people working who suddenly realize just cause you can work a 25 rate doesn’t mean you can work a 50 rate and we’re all going to suffer for it.
 
But what’s with her pissy attitude? Couldn’t see that in a multi-panel interview process that I assume lasts at least one day?


She should have a come to Jesus moment or be told she’s walking.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
But what’s with her pissy attitude? Couldn’t see that in a multi-panel interview process that I assume lasts at least one day?


She should have a come to Jesus moment or be told she’s walking.
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There’s literally no interview. Nobody from the FAA met me until I showed up at the FAA academy.

And I can promise you nothing will happen to her. ATSAP and the current “safety culture” make it near impossible to remove a controller once they’re certified.
 
nabbyfan said:
There’s literally no interview. Nobody from the FAA met me until I showed up at the FAA academy.

And I can promise you nothing will happen to her. ATSAP and the current “safety culture” make it near impossible to remove a controller once they’re certified.
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So how does this work? Who interviews, who vets? No checks and balances?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
So how does this work? Who interviews, who vets? No checks and balances?
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You either pass all the tests and exams, and then get qualified on all the sectors in your facility/area, or you don’t. If you fail at the academy you’re fired, if you fail during training at a facility you either get reassigned to a slower facility or you get fired.

The only “interview” is passing the pre employment tests, psych exam, and medical exam. You never sit down with anyone and do a traditional job interview at any point in the process.

During training, at least at the ARTCC, each position has a set number of training hours. Say it’s a 120 hour sector. After 120 hours of being plugged in with an instructor, you’re either “recommended for certification” and you do a checkride with a supervisor, or you aren’t recommended and your training is terminated. Repeat until you have every sector in your Area, which in my case is 6 sectors, or you’re gone.

Once you’re certified, like I said, there’s almost no way to be removed or even face any real discipline for errors during the operation. It just doesn’t happen. You file your ATSAP and you move on. Only exception is if they can prove you’re somehow intentionally running traffic together or you fail a drug test.
 
BAW was snarky in NYC when I was based there so the comment isn’t surprising, albeit not needed. Her response is surprising though.

Hopefully folks are doing ASAP reports about this controller is she’s as bad as everyone claims. If not there’s no paper trail. Legend has it that SDF had a controller with attitude issues and enough ASAP’s got him canned. I’d imagine there were some other things that led to that outcome also.
 
derg said:
I got laid into by a controller in IND because I wouldn’t fly through a large area of pulsating magenta on the radar and got a guilt trip for not taking it.

The controller said the previous aircraft didn’t report anything, I asked who and when, and that report was literally two hours old. I know they had traffic to sequence that night, but I don’t feel like getting my windscreen busted-out and my radome crushed-in pretending like I’m Ernest Gann or something.
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"So, just to clarify, am I up here because you're down there, or is it the other way around?"
 
I think it would take a whole lot more than this for me to want a controller to get fired. Gross incompetence and being a danger to others would be the bar for that I think. People are usually trainable. I think a testy controller getting a professional rudder steer is a totally reasonable. People don't need a whole bunch of nasty grams lording over them in their record, they just need convincing leaders who will just sit them down and explain that they need to cut that **** out.
 
///AMG said:
I think it would take a whole lot more than this for me to want a controller to get fired. Gross incompetence and being a danger to others would be the bar for that I think. People are usually trainable. I think a testy controller getting a professional rudder steer is a totally reasonable. People don't need a whole bunch of nasty grams lording over them in their record, they just need convincing leaders who will just sit them down and explain that they need to cut that **** out.
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We have pro-standards but it is worthless and mostly deals with internal conflict anyway. Controllers (much like pilots) all think they know everything, and this includes the management and support specialists who develop training curricula. Our training basically consists of the regulations being read to us in power point form followed by simulation training that was developed by a controller or team of controllers with no background in education, followed by on the job training.

Imagine learning to fly whatever rig you fly now with no actual piloting experience until you sit down in the cockpit with a load of pax in the back. I've heard people say that the majority of controllers come up through smaller facilities, but that is not my experience. Anyone at a center probably started with zero experience at that center or another one. When I trained at the core-30 the majority of controllers there came up through there (this is starting to change but 10 years after the placement rules were changed). Furthermore, even if a controller does start at a smaller facility, the differences between a level 5 class D airport and a level 11 class B one are night and day, there is not a whole lot of direct skill translation, and what little there is is rendered moot because if you are an experienced transfer they reduce the number of training hours you are allotted to certify.
 
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