Seminole VS Seneca

popaviator

popaviator

Well-Known Member
I can already tell which one is going to be a better trainer (Seminole). Our fleet has 3 Seneca's and I'm getting ready to begin instructing in them...any advice for the transition from the seminole? It is kind of cool to look back and see 4 seats instead of 2.:D
 
You have accelerated airflow over the horizontal stabilizer in the Seneca. That's probably the biggest handling difference over the T-tail Seminole. And the Seneca gets away from the ground pretty quick with just a student an instructor in it.
 
I instruct in a PA34-220T and PA44-180s.

The big differences are the power and as previously mentioned the airflow over the tail. Make sure you're within a few feet of the runway before you go power idle, or you'll be hearing SINK RATE.

Big fat tires = big fat terrible ground steering. Be ready to be jumping on the rudders while on the ground.
 
I don't know what kind of flaps your senecas have but I have flown senecas with both full-winspan flaps as well as the normal half-wingspan flaps. Both of them really start to oscillate (wings wobble) when slow and in ground effect (i.e. flare)
 
It's been a while, but with just 2 people up front the Seneca is very nose heavy. It's also a lot heavier on the controls. Some flight schools would put sandbags in the baggage compartment to compensate on training flights.
 
Seminole is not a good trainer in my mind.
Slow and stable, yes, but I think it is good training to get people used to things happening faster, like in Baron, Seneca or 310.
I think at Commercial Add-on time, it is time to get some speed, before the shiny jet.

Plus I just don't like Seminole performance on one engine :D Now that is sink rate.
 
Douglas said:
Seminole is not a good trainer in my mind.
Slow and stable, yes, but I think it is good training to get people used to things happening faster, like in Baron, Seneca or 310.
I think at Commercial Add-on time, it is time to get some speed, before the shiny jet.

Plus I just don't like Seminole performance on one engine :D Now that is sink rate.
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Because everyone after their multi-commercial goes straight to a jet... :)
 
If the only twin you've done a VMC demo in is a Seminole, be careful in the Seneca, as it will actually run out of rudder on you (unlike the Seminole which will buffet and stall long before you run out of rudder).
 
BobDDuck said:
If the only twin you've done a VMC demo in is a Seminole, be careful in the Seneca, as it will actually run out of rudder on you (unlike the Seminole which will buffet and stall long before you run out of rudder).
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:yeahthat:

You never achieve true VMC in the Seminole. Get ready for it in the Seneca. What model Seneca are you flying?
 
See, I think the Seminole IS a good trainer b/c things happen slowly. Might as well say a 172 isn't a good trainer and everyone should jump in a Bonanza if you go that route. Seminole is good to learn how to do multi flying initially for some of the reasons above, Vmc demos especially. If you're constantly behind the airplane b/c it's either too much for you to handle or things are happening too quickly, then you're not really in a good learning environment. Of course, I also don't think people with wet CMEL tickets belong in the right seat of a jet, either. That's why you need some sort of transition between the intial multi-engine learning and the big iron. Go out, get the ticket in a plane you can handle, THEN get some experience in something like a Baron or a 310.

For the record, I also think the Seneca is a good trainer. I started my ME in the Seneca, but about the only thing I can remember (before a hurricane totalled the plane) is having the yoke pulled back in my lap in the flare.
 
Dunno about the Seminole, but if it's similar to a Duchess (in which I did my multi), I'm forced to disagree. I got the multi so I could upgrade from a 210 to a Baron. The Duchess was more docile than the 210, let alone the Baron. There's such a thing as being "too easy". IMHO, multi training should be done in something similar to what you're realistically going to fly as a multi-piston commercial pilot, not a Sundowner with two engines.
 
As mentioned before, the seneca is very nose heavy, especially with just you and a student in it. Make sure you really do flare...when it feels like you have just enough back pressure, add more. The props have very little ground clearance and the nosewheel likes to land first. Other than that, it's a lot faster climber than a seminole, so it's easy to get behind in the pattern. It's a very nice airplane for training, and if yours has A/C, it's even better during the summer months.
 
kellwolf said:
See, I think the Seminole IS a good trainer b/c things happen slowly. Might as well say a 172 isn't a good trainer and everyone should jump in a Bonanza if you go that route. Seminole is good to learn how to do multi flying initially for some of the reasons above, Vmc demos especially. If you're constantly behind the airplane b/c it's either too much for you to handle or things are happening too quickly, then you're not really in a good learning environment. Of course, I also don't think people with wet CMEL tickets belong in the right seat of a jet, either. That's why you need some sort of transition between the intial multi-engine learning and the big iron. Go out, get the ticket in a plane you can handle, THEN get some experience in something like a Baron or a 310.

For the record, I also think the Seneca is a good trainer. I started my ME in the Seneca, but about the only thing I can remember (before a hurricane totalled the plane) is having the yoke pulled back in my lap in the flare.
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:yeahthat:
 
kellwolf said:
Might as well say a 172 isn't a good trainer and everyone should jump in a Bonanza if you go that route.
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172 is a great trainer in it's proper location in our training steps.
Seminole just doesn't cut it IMHO when it comes to commercial training, private add-on sure, but not commercial.
Operating costs really make it a moot point though. We lost our 310, now our aztec, and will probably get a Seminole to be competitive with the other flight schools in town.
 
kellwolf said:
I also think the Seneca is a good trainer. I started my ME in the Seneca, but about the only thing I can remember (before a hurricane totalled the plane) is having the yoke pulled back in my lap in the flare.
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I also started my training in a Seneca. I remember the aileron and rudders were linked. This meant it was a pain in crosswinds, and had a limitation of 12 or 13 knots. I flew the Seneca 1, and I believe they corrected this in the later models.
 
I have a whole lot of Seneca III time, (turbo charged, fixed waste gate). Besides the engines I imagine it's alot like the other Senecas.

It's a good plane, it'll feel bigger (it is) than the Seminole.

The thing that sticks out in my mind are the landings. I flew usually with one or two in the back and it was still nose heavy. Our stardard ops were that unless you were landing on a short field (I think less than 3 or 4 thousand feet) we used a reduced flap setting for landing. (Flaps 25?). This helps keep the nose up during flare.

Additionally the prop tips don't have much clearance, if you hit nose first and porpoise, it could potentially cause a prop strike on the next landing. The key is to re-flare. Don't just hold the elevator where it is (that got you in trouble in the first place). Think of it as a whole separate landing...a do-over. Get that nose up!
 
I did my comm add on and MEI in a Seneca 1. Lots of extra power - we did lots of V1 engine cuts :crazy:.

Seriously, as others have mentioned, you will loose your rudder effectiveness with VMC demos - may want to pay particular attention on those hot, humid summer days when you'll stall first above a certain altitude - not good during a VMC demo!
 
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