Save the contract towers

[drunkenbeagle]

Excise tax, Security Fee, Passenger Facility Charge.

Well, the last two pay for terminals and TSA expenses, which aren't used by GA aircraft.

I've seen both the US (tax based) and European (user fee based) models up close. I like the US model more.

 

[Pilotforhire587]

Anyone know where I can find a list of the control towers that will be closed?

http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/Facilities_Could_Be_Closed.pdf

 

[WacoFan]

I don't think anyone is saying your dog , who eats his own poop, would do better than Obama. I think the issue here is very specific. It deals with your comment that the rest of aviation needs to pay their fair share of taxes for the system they use, inferring that the airlines are some how placed with the burden of keeping it running. All we are saying is that you are trying to feed us the same bs the airline CEO's and board members like to spew and simply not true. Hell, even though I started in the corporate world, I now fly for an airline and hope to continue my career in the airlines but I still know better than that.

I was not commenting on user fees in any way. I was answering the question of whether Romney or Paul would do a better job.

As for the statement "I don't think anyone is saying that your dog, who eats his own poop, would do better than Obama" - yes, someone IS saying that. ME, in the post you quoted.

Now, as for user fees. Companies that use corporate aviation as a tool do not rely on corporate aviation to exist. Aviation is ancillary to what they do. Exxon, Walmart, etc do not exist to support a flight department - they have a core business. Further, Seggy points out the taxes that airlines pay. Awesome. What about the taxes that Exxon, Walmart and all corporate operators pay? If corporate aviation makes a company more efficient...efficiency leads to profits...profits lead to tax-revenue.

Airlines on the other hand need the national airspace system to exist in anything close to their current form. The idea that General Aviation, a small user of the system, should subsidize the airlines or even help share the cost of something that the airline business needs to exist is foolish. People can, and do, and have, flown privately without using the current system. The airlines simply could not.

 

[Pilotforhire587]

I was not commenting on user fees in any way. I was answering the question of whether Romney or Paul would do a better job.

As for the statement "I don't think anyone is saying that your dog, who eats his own poop, would do better than Obama" - yes, someone IS saying that. ME, in the post you quoted.

Now, as for user fees. Companies that use corporate aviation as a tool do not rely on corporate aviation to exist. Aviation is ancillary to what they do. Exxon, Walmart, etc do not exist to support a flight department - they have a core business. Further, Seggy points out the taxes that airlines pay. Awesome. What about the taxes that Exxon, Walmart and all corporate operators pay? If corporate aviation makes a company more efficient...efficiency leads to profits...profits lead to tax-revenue.

Airlines on the other hand need the national airspace system to exist in anything close to their current form. The idea that General Aviation, a small user of the system, should subsidize the airlines or even help share the cost of something that the airline business needs to exist is foolish. People can, and do, and have, flown privately without using the current system. The airlines simply could not.

Where did I say anything about user fees? Or comment on anything you said in the first place? I am only talking about taxes in regards to fuel and aircraft and how they support the national airspace system.

And let me edit the first part, MOST people here don't think your dog, that eats his own poop, could do better than Obama.

Also before you get the wrong impression, I personally can't stand Obama, but to me saying a dog can govern a country better doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

People can, and do, and have, flown privately without using the current system. The airlines simply could not.

In many cases yeah, but crossing an ADIZ for instance, you are pretty much forced to use ATC services.

 

[pilot4500]

http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/Facilities_Could_Be_Closed.pdf

Thank you for providing that link. Some of the airports on the list I can understand why they would close. They are out in the middle of nowhere, don't have much traffic, and don't really need a tower. Some of the other airports on the list just have me scratching my head.

KBTL: I can only imagine what this airport will look like on a nice VFR day with all the WMU students doing pattern work, going to and from the practice areas, and doing practice instrument approaches without a tower.

KFDK: The tower at this airport was just built, has been open for less than a year, and now they are closing it? That airport gets pretty busy and really needs a tower.

KJQF: Thursday afternoon and Sunday nights have ton of NASCAR related traffic coming and going, plus a fair amount of student training. What a mess that will be.

I could go on, but I can't help but wonder what they were thinking??

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Who pays to build new towers? I know CLE isn't closing, but wondering who funding.

 

[jtrain609]

Thank you for providing that link. Some of the airports on the list I can understand why they would close. They are out in the middle of nowhere, don't have much traffic, and don't really need a tower. Some of the other airports on the list just have me scratching my head.

KBTL: I can only imagine what this airport will look like on a nice VFR day with all the WMU students doing pattern work, going to and from the practice areas, and doing practice instrument approaches without a tower.

KFDK: The tower at this airport was just built, has been open for less than a year, and now they are closing it? That airport gets pretty busy and really needs a tower.

KJQF: Thursday afternoon and Sunday nights have ton of NASCAR related traffic coming and going, plus a fair amount of student training. What a mess that will be.

I could go on, but I can't help but wonder what they were thinking??

Outside of KBTL, I'm not sure any of the towers being closed in Michigan needed to be there in the first place. I mean does anybody actually go to KDET anymore? Close the damned thing down as far as I'm concerned.

Also, has anybody noticed that the document says, "ATC Facilities that COULD be closed."

They're not saying they will be, but they MIGHT be!

 

[rframe]

I could go on, but I can't help but wonder what they were thinking??

Remember, this has NOTHING to do with budget cuts, it is 100% a political leverage scare tactic, "ZOMG we need to fire ATC because Republicans wont give me money!@!@!".... while it does effectively nothing to affect change with regard to the Federal deficit spending.

 

[TripSix]

Also, has anybody noticed that the document says, "ATC Facilities that COULD be closed."

They're not saying they will be, but they MIGHT be!

I couldn't get that link to open on my phone, but there is a list out of 173 towers that WILL close on April 7th. The companies who contract those towers have already received official notification.

 

[Seggy]

I still don't see specifics about these tax breaks. I need details. In which bill are they contained?

It was a small portion of the economic stimulus bill.

It's called accelerated depreciation, and it's only applicable to aircraft put in service strictly for business use. Wanna jet set to the islands to play for the weekend? No accelerated depreciation for you! Want to use a brand spanking new Lear 45 to shuttle around the middle management to three different job sites in a single day? Congrats, your company gets to take accelerated depre...er, uh...there's your evil "tax break". Right ZapBrannigan?

I am sure that those trips to the islands are more often a business expense than they are not. I am sure some creative accounting goes into those trips.

Matter of fact, it's such a terrible concept, that Mr. "They don't need an extra tax break" signed the Economic Stimulus Bill in 2009, which (GASP!) included provisions for accelerated depreciation for business aircraft. So many rich people took advantage of it, and the economy took such a hard hit, that he signed it again in the Taxpayer Relief Act of 2012.

You know as well as I do that Obama wasn't going to hold up a bill just for one reason. He know wants to go back and fix what is broken in that bill. To hold up a good bill for one reason is a game the Republicans play, not the Democrats. You are smarter than that.

Oh yeah. Let's not forgot about those airlines that are paying their fair share of taxes get to take advantage of this too.

Corporate operators are hardly paying their fair share of taxes.

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

I mean does anybody actually go to KDET anymore?

Hey! mikecweb and I thoroughly enjoyed our trip in there. It was awesome being the only two white guys sitting at the corner of Seven Mile and Outer Drive. The best part was when they told us fuel wasn't available after dark because they put the truck in the hangar so it doesn't get hit by a stray bullet.

 

[Seggy]

Also we could remove the stupid rule requiring more controllers after that LEX crash that was 100% the pilots fault, adding the extra $150k/yr controller was a humongous waste of taxpayer dollars.

That is actually a fatigue mitigation rule after the controller fell asleep in DCA.

 

[Pilotforhire587]

That is actually a fatigue mitigation rule after the controller fell asleep in DCA.

This is correct. In addition to a few other incidents with controllers falling asleep.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

I mean does anybody actually go to KDET anymore? Close the damned thing down as far as I'm concerned.

It was about 3 years ago I went to DET. once on the ramp I heard three rounds pulled and the ramp guy even said they were close. I got back in my plane and left. Not worth going there.

 

[Seggy]

Seggy,
What happened to you.

Nothing, I just have more experience and have seen a few things from the corporate and general aviation world that I need to discuss.

You used to have lots of informative and useful things to say on here.

I still do. Case in point is the cluster that is happening in FLL. They are expanding 9R as corporate folks were bitching about how short it was. They initially wanted to build the new runway north of 9L but the handful of corporate folks that have hangers there complained that they didn't want to spend the money to rebuild the hangers. Sooooo, Spirit and Jetblue have had to change their growth plans over the next few years due to the construction that will now impact them with the closing of 9R and the new facilities there. Furthermore, airlines now flying into FLL over the next few years are going to experience delays due to the one runway operation. Why? Because a handful of corporate operators bitched and moaned, payed off some politicians, and got what they wanted. Yet, the airlines are going to take it in the pocketbook.

Then there is BOS. Every time I am there some corporate guy is trying to get taxi clearance on ground before contacting clearance delivery. If you want to fly into BOS instead of BED fine. That is your right. But you should have to pay a fee to the fine ATC folks as you are increasing their workload. If you wanted to go to BED, you should still pay a fee to use the ATC Service, but not as much as BOS.

You used to be a voice of reason.

I still am. People just don't want to listen as they think the user fees will tax their C-172 or Piper Seminole Training thousands per year. I disagree with that, but more needs to be paid.

Ever since you got married you've been a bitter, trolling asshat. It got worse when you got hired at Spirit. You doing ok man?

Doing great, could not be better as a matter of fact!

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

I am sure that those trips to the islands are more often a business expense than they are not. I am sure some creative accounting goes into those trips.

That's an issue with residency and business address tricks, not with owning a jet. Ask me over a beer sometime why we sold the Hawker for a 7 million dollar loss.

You know as well as I do that Obama wasn't going to hold up a bill just for one reason. He know wants to go back and fix what is broken in that bill. To hold up a good bill for one reason is a game the Republicans play, not the Democrats. You are smarter than that.

And you're smart enough to know that it's not the job of the government to create jobs. That's the responsibility of private business. You keep taxing the crap out of them, and they can't afford to create jobs. Drop the taxes, and jobs magically appear. Not a very difficult concept to grasp.

Good on the Republicans for standing up for themselves.

Corporate operators are hardly paying their fair share of taxes.

How much is enough? Because right now, we're paying 7.5% on fuel, plus a few other bullcrap fees at various airports.

 

[Seggy]

Now, as for user fees. Companies that use corporate aviation as a tool do not rely on corporate aviation to exist. Aviation is ancillary to what they do. Exxon, Walmart, etc do not exist to support a flight department - they have a core business. Further, Seggy points out the taxes that airlines pay. Awesome. What about the taxes that Exxon, Walmart and all corporate operators pay? If corporate aviation makes a company more efficient...efficiency leads to profits...profits lead to tax-revenue.

Wouldn't you want a 9% tax rate?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/06/most-profitable-corporations-tax-rate_n_1746817.html

The idea that General Aviation, a small user of the system, should subsidize the airlines or even help share the cost of something that the airline business needs to exist is foolish. People can, and do, and have, flown privately without using the current system.

That is simply not true. You need FAA inspectors, airport navaids to be repaired, etc. Time for GA to pay for those services.

 

[Pilotforhire587]

Then there is BOS. Every time I am there some corporate guy is trying to get taxi clearance on ground before contacting clearance delivery. If you want to fly into BOS instead of BED fine. That is your right. But you should have to pay a fee to the fine ATC folks as you are increasing their workload. If you wanted to go to BED, you should still pay a fee to use the ATC Service, but not as much as BOS.



I still am. People just don't want to listen as they think the user fees will tax their C-172 or Piper Seminole Training thousands per year. I disagree with that, but more needs to be paid.

Why should Corporate operators have to pay to fly into a specific airport when the airlines don't? We're talking taxes here, not landing or departure fees because those don't go towards ATC, just facilities.

And to the guy flying the seminole around. Right now in TN the avg price of AvGas is about $6 a gallon, over $2 of that is tax but we will use $2 as a nice round number. If I am in a seminole I am burning about 20 gallons an in cruise (far less than most aircraft), so for every hour I fly that aircraft the government makes about $40 in tax. I think thats pretty a pretty steep price to pay for services as it is. How are you going to justify the guy having to pay more.

 

[Seggy]

How much is enough? Because right now, we're paying 7.5% on fuel, plus a few other bullcrap fees at various airports.

The bullcrap fees go to the airport you choose to use NOT to provide the services that you use that the National Airspace System provides. I would say between $75.00 and $100.00 for a corporate jet. That won't break the bank on your per hour operating cost and will help supplement the services corporate operators use.