Save G.A.
- Thread starter Sprint100
- Start date
MusketeerMan
Well-Known Member
See but therein lies the problem. The customers don't want to pay the correct price for a ticket and the Airlines won't raise the fares when Southwest or an operation like Skybust comes along with ridiculous fares. The Airline Industry, which is essential to the economy (hence the reason the government won't let companies like United, Delta and Airways tank), should not be a Capitalism operation. Otherwise things will never get fixed. There is no business model in today's economy, short of having someone else pay for your fuel, that an Airline can be successful and profitable while the pilots are getting paid fairly.
Capitalism as you put it, is the reason why I won't break $25k this year flying 86 pax around. I'll be lucky if I break $30k next year. Screw Capitalism. I want to make money, not sacrifice MY paycheck just so Suzy Q can fly to Florida for $100.
Good post Dave, but I don't think you can put Southwest and Skybust in the same sentence. (Though I just did). 2 totally different business models, 2 totally different ways to pay & treat their employees and one glowing difference...Southwest is profitable and still open for business.
Now...don't let this derail the "save GA thread"..
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Well you did chose your route of employment knowing what your would be getting into
I yi yi. . .yeah, and surprisingly - a couple of us here will/are/have work(ing)(ed) hard to make sure it gets BETTER.
It's obviously clear where you stand on the issue.
Don't fall coming down.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
I would expect much to be seen that way with MR. Babbitt, but still those quotes are frightening.
Where is this money going to come from exactly? These airlines just got back out of bankruptcy and are finally pulling a profit. How do you expect them to pay for increased wages especially with the airlines heading back to the bankruptcy courts? Where do they get this money to help themselves, if not from the employees? Sure they can contribute with their wages, but it wont be enough.
All I keep getting is management is the devil and unions are like being in heaven. Only problem is that I keep finding this cyclical nature of the airlines being widely contributed by both the management and unions. You would not have work without the management. Simple as that. If you want money that simply isn't available and you let go of the rope and cause the management to fall on their butts and go into strike mode or the all known United Airlines, lets make things miserable mode, the company will file for bankruptcy. The company wants to grow, buy new aircraft and expand. They can't do that without money. Sure there is a point where pay can be too low, but what legacy airline pilots make certainly is livable.
I know neither side would want to admit that there is a tug of war that contributes to the fragile airline industry, but it is there. Maybe only an outside view can see it? Maybe this is why you keep telling me to get experience inside the airlines to start a bias?
Why do I continue to post about these things? Because I am researching for myself for my future in the industry.
Neither side is completely right in what they believe, but neither side wants to admit they are wrong at all. This industry is like two whining brats that can't get along. deregulation didn't work because of this quarrel. Stop fighting, build a plan to stabilize the industry, profit.
Is there a problem with trying to stabilize the airline industry? Is there a reason why I keep having all this bad feedback?
With the unions trying to run the management, and the management trying to circumnavigate around the unions, no wonder the airline industry keeps going in circles.
Now that this thread as shifted from the original intent I am done here.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
It doesn't have to be that way. This isn't just an aviation labor issue either, it's all industries.
Management's goal is to extract as much work for as little cost as possible from their employees.
Labor (organized or not) is than tasked with having to defend their income against a constant attack by management, along with defending their work rules that provide them a quality of life that they have become accustomed to.
Unions are NOT trying to run Management. Unions, just protect their collective members FROM a reduction in income and work rules.
I think that's a pretty easy topic to understand. Not difficult.
Fly_Unity
Well-Known Member
Most people in this Forum are so Airline oriented it dont surprise me that so many want GA user fees. Airlines are so stuck in everybody's head they cant see the real flying. GA transports more passengers then all the airlines combined, and note that 70% of the airlines in the USA only go to 30 hubs. And for those of you who whine about the airline pay, there IS something else besides Airlines. I just got my commercial rating last year, and this year I already got 4 job offers that pays over 35 K first year. I dont think that's low pay. And if you complain about low pay, its your fault for going to an airline.. hehe
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Good Job Unity.
Although, I didn't see you mention that you accepted one of those four job offers.
Although, I didn't see you mention that you accepted one of those four job offers.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Again, the quotes shouldn't be frightening to you. Do you honestly think that it's acceptable for a pilot have taken a 65% paycut since the '70s? What other profession has endured such drastic cuts? None! The balance sheet should not be balanced on the backs of labor.
That's what you don't seem to get: we've long since passed the point where pay is far too low. None of us got into this business just for a "livable" salary.
I don't want you to develop a "bias," I want you to get some experience. Do you have any idea how many junior copilots I've flown with who make the same comments that you're making? A year or two later, they always say the same thing: "man, you really were right, I was way off!" You can't understand this profession and this industry until you've had some time in it. Looking in as an outsider doesn't give you the proper perspective.
You'll have to tell that to management. The unions don't want to fight. Management is the one fighting, we're just defending ourselves.
You think $35k is good pay? Granted, it's better than regional first-year pay, but good?
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
I know a few pilots that made more then $35k their first year at a regional.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
That's pretty impressive. XJT? I bet they worked their butts off, though.
Fly_Unity
Well-Known Member
Yes I just accepted one. Corporate King gig, so far Im enjoying it but still in the right seat till they send me to Flight Sim, and I get 250 in type.
PCL:
I do think 35 K first year pay is decent, considering Im still single, have no loans, and doing a side job in construction to pay for all my housing, and I live cheap. It was only 16 months ago all I had was my private, and flew over 1000 hours since then. Im pretty happy with it for my first year.
GA is the only reason I fly, nothing better then taking a Super Cub and flying in the Rocky Mountains down the canyons along the river.
It makes me sick people want to have GA user fees so they can have more leverage for better pay.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Sorry if it makes you sick, but I got into this business to make a living. I like flying as much as the next guy, but this is my profession. It's about making a good living, and we make now ain't a good living. I'm happy for you that you got your first job in this business, and that salary isn't bad to start, but I hope you don't sell yourself short on what you really deserve just because you enjoy flying.
Matt13C
Well-Known Member
Does anyone foresee a day when airliners are flying single pilot? I know commercial airliners are much more complex than any GA plane, but with management wanting to eliminate costs I think this would be their next logical step. I know planes today are not set up or designed for this, but I have no doubt Boeing or Airbus could not design a plane capable or even retrofit older planes.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I think we're many decades away from the FAA even considering it. We'll never see that day, thankfully.
[modhat] Watch it please...your getting awfully close to crossing the "be kind to your fellow JC member" line[/modhat]
Speak for yourself.
Would I love to make $300k to fly an airplane? Who the hell wouldn't?
Is it something I need? Nope.
-mini
well, we can certainly see that they haven't fixed anything even up until now - that right there should speak volumes if GA fees are put into place.
it won't fix anything, it'll only add to the cost.
Fly_Unity
Well-Known Member
That was your mistake... dont make it hard for everyone elses passion just so you can be a hero. GA is the majority here. Try going to the UK, or almost any other country and see how it is flying over there. you really want to be like them?
charlie1017
Well-Known Member
I can see some of PCL's points in the sense that pilot supply must be controlled somehow. However, I think that can be done in other ways without the user fees... Like having something like Part 135 minimums before flying 121 for example, and creating tougher standards for Commercial/ATP certification.
Just my 2 cents...
Just my 2 cents...