Safety Pilot Time?
- Thread starter Falcon
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rausda27
Well-Known Member
91.109(b) covers the requirements for being a safety pilot..AS far as loggin PIC, yes, both the safety pilot and the pilot flying under simulated instrument conditions may log PIC flight time..
From the Western-Pacific FSDO...
[ QUOTE ]
Normally, a safety pilot, required by regulations, who scans for traffic for a pilot flying under simulated instrument conditions is not pilot-in-command and thus logs second-in-command. However, if the two pilots agree that the safety pilot is designated pilot-in-command, the safety pilot/pilot-in-command may log PIC since he is the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft. The pilot flying is "sole manipulator of the controls for which the pilot is rated"" and may also log PIC. Therefore, two private pilots may log PIC under these conditions. However, the safety pilot/pilot-in-command must realize that anything that occurs during the flight is his responsibility. Airspace violations, non-compliance with ATC instructions, near mid air collision, and runway incursions on the ground are all now charged to the safety pilot
[/ QUOTE ]
From the Western-Pacific FSDO...
[ QUOTE ]
Normally, a safety pilot, required by regulations, who scans for traffic for a pilot flying under simulated instrument conditions is not pilot-in-command and thus logs second-in-command. However, if the two pilots agree that the safety pilot is designated pilot-in-command, the safety pilot/pilot-in-command may log PIC since he is the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft. The pilot flying is "sole manipulator of the controls for which the pilot is rated"" and may also log PIC. Therefore, two private pilots may log PIC under these conditions. However, the safety pilot/pilot-in-command must realize that anything that occurs during the flight is his responsibility. Airspace violations, non-compliance with ATC instructions, near mid air collision, and runway incursions on the ground are all now charged to the safety pilot
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MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Covered: here, here, here, here, and here
[/ QUOTE ]LOL. But even easier than finding those threads is cutting and pasting from a personal FAQ with =far= more information than anyone wants to know!
==============================
Standard safety pilot logging scenarios
Terminology and assumptions:
VFR and IFR refer to the rules of the flight. VMC and IMC refer to the visual conditions of the flight
FP is shorthand to refer to the Flying Pilot, the only one who is actually manipulating the controls. SP is the Safety Pilot, who is there as a lookout.
Both pilots are current and qualified to perform the duties asked of them.
No one in these scenarios is an instructor.
Scenario 1: Under VFR (FP under the hood):
1. Nobody has to be instrument rated and it doesn't matter if someone is.
2. FP logs PIC because she is the "sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated" 61.51(e)(1)
3. FP logs "simulated instrument time" for the time she is under the hood, because 61.51(b) requires that a log entry include the conditions of flight and one of those conditions is "simulated instrument" along with day and night.
4. SP may log PIC if SP is acting as PIC for the flight because he "is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under ... the regulations under which the flight is conducted. 61.51(e)(1). Flight in simulated IMC is an operation that requires more than one pilot. 91.109(b). If SP is not acting as PIC, he may log SIC. 61.51(f).
Scenario 2: Under IFR in VMC (FP under the hood). FP is not instrument rated; SP is instrument rated:
1. Someone must be instrument rated since the flight is under IFR. SP must be acting as PIC because he's the only one who is legally capable of acting as PIC under IFR.
2. FP logs PIC because she is the "sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated" 61.51(e)(1)
3. FP logs "simulated instrument time" for the time she is under the hood, because 61.51(b) requires that a log entry include the conditions of flight and one of those conditions is "simulated instrument" along with day and night.
4. SP may log PIC because he is "is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under ... the regulations under which the flight is conducted. 61.51(e)(1). Flight in simulated IMC is an operation that requires more than one pilot. 91.109(b).
Scenario 3: Under IFR in VMC (FP under the hood). FP is instrument rated; SP is not instrument rated:
1. Someone must be instrument rated since the flight is under IFR. FP must be acting as PIC because he's the only one who is legally capable of acting as PIC under IFR.
2. FP logs PIC because she is the "sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated" 61.51(e)(1)
3. FP logs "simulated instrument time" for the time she is under the hood, because 61.51(b) requires that a log entry include the conditions of flight and one of those conditions is "simulated instrument" along with day and night.
4. SP may log SIC because he is not acting as PIC but is performing pilot duties on a flight on which "more than one pilot is required under ... the regulations under which the flight is being conducted" 61.51(f)(2). Flight in simulated IMC is an operation that requires more than one pilot. 91.109(b).
Scenario 4: Under IFR in IMC. (No hood) FP is not instrument rated; SP is instrument rated:
1. Like Scenario 2, SP must be acting as PIC because he's the only one who is legally capable of acting as PIC under IFR.
2. FP logs PIC because she is the "sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated" 61.51(e)(1).
3. FP logs "actual instrument time" for the time she is under the hood, because 61.51(b) requires that a log entry include the conditions of flight and one of those conditions is "actual instrument" along with day and night.
4. SP logs nothing countable. (This is different in other countries)
a. Yes, he is =acting= as PIC, but hasn't fulfilled =any= conditions for logging it. There is no rule anywhere that says that one gets to =log= PIC by =acting= as PIC without there being some other condition. 61.51 gives you the universe of when you can log something. "Acting as PIC" standing alone, is not one of them.
b. This flight doesn't fit into the 61.51 "more than one pilot required" rule. Unlike simulated instrument flight which under 61.109 requires more than one pilot, there is no FAR that requires "more than one pilot" on a flight under IFR. True, the SP is required for the flight since he's the instrument-rated one, but he's the =only= one that's required.
Scenario 5: Under IFR in IMC. (FP under the hood) FP is not instrument rated; SP is instrument rated:
There's no clear answer from the FAA on this one. Some say that since it's actual IMC, it can't be simulated IMC. Therefore, no safety pilot is necessary and we apply the rules from Scenario 4.
Others argue that purpose of a safety pilot is to fulfill "see and avoid" responsibilities. Those obligations exist even in IMC and the FP is in no position to meet them even if she temporarily flies out of a cloud. So, even in IMC, if FP is hooded, the SP is required and the rules from Scenario 2 apply.
Scenario 6: Under IFR in IMC. FP under the hood. FP is instrument rated; SP is not instrument rated:
Same argument as Scenario 5. If you view the SP as required, we're under the same logging rules as Scenario 3. If you view the SP as not required, then we just have a flight by an instrument-rated pilot in IMC and the SP logs nothing.
==============================
Covered: here, here, here, here, and here
[/ QUOTE ]LOL. But even easier than finding those threads is cutting and pasting from a personal FAQ with =far= more information than anyone wants to know!
==============================
Standard safety pilot logging scenarios
Terminology and assumptions:
VFR and IFR refer to the rules of the flight. VMC and IMC refer to the visual conditions of the flight
FP is shorthand to refer to the Flying Pilot, the only one who is actually manipulating the controls. SP is the Safety Pilot, who is there as a lookout.
Both pilots are current and qualified to perform the duties asked of them.
No one in these scenarios is an instructor.
Scenario 1: Under VFR (FP under the hood):
1. Nobody has to be instrument rated and it doesn't matter if someone is.
2. FP logs PIC because she is the "sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated" 61.51(e)(1)
3. FP logs "simulated instrument time" for the time she is under the hood, because 61.51(b) requires that a log entry include the conditions of flight and one of those conditions is "simulated instrument" along with day and night.
4. SP may log PIC if SP is acting as PIC for the flight because he "is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under ... the regulations under which the flight is conducted. 61.51(e)(1). Flight in simulated IMC is an operation that requires more than one pilot. 91.109(b). If SP is not acting as PIC, he may log SIC. 61.51(f).
Scenario 2: Under IFR in VMC (FP under the hood). FP is not instrument rated; SP is instrument rated:
1. Someone must be instrument rated since the flight is under IFR. SP must be acting as PIC because he's the only one who is legally capable of acting as PIC under IFR.
2. FP logs PIC because she is the "sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated" 61.51(e)(1)
3. FP logs "simulated instrument time" for the time she is under the hood, because 61.51(b) requires that a log entry include the conditions of flight and one of those conditions is "simulated instrument" along with day and night.
4. SP may log PIC because he is "is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under ... the regulations under which the flight is conducted. 61.51(e)(1). Flight in simulated IMC is an operation that requires more than one pilot. 91.109(b).
Scenario 3: Under IFR in VMC (FP under the hood). FP is instrument rated; SP is not instrument rated:
1. Someone must be instrument rated since the flight is under IFR. FP must be acting as PIC because he's the only one who is legally capable of acting as PIC under IFR.
2. FP logs PIC because she is the "sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated" 61.51(e)(1)
3. FP logs "simulated instrument time" for the time she is under the hood, because 61.51(b) requires that a log entry include the conditions of flight and one of those conditions is "simulated instrument" along with day and night.
4. SP may log SIC because he is not acting as PIC but is performing pilot duties on a flight on which "more than one pilot is required under ... the regulations under which the flight is being conducted" 61.51(f)(2). Flight in simulated IMC is an operation that requires more than one pilot. 91.109(b).
Scenario 4: Under IFR in IMC. (No hood) FP is not instrument rated; SP is instrument rated:
1. Like Scenario 2, SP must be acting as PIC because he's the only one who is legally capable of acting as PIC under IFR.
2. FP logs PIC because she is the "sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated" 61.51(e)(1).
3. FP logs "actual instrument time" for the time she is under the hood, because 61.51(b) requires that a log entry include the conditions of flight and one of those conditions is "actual instrument" along with day and night.
4. SP logs nothing countable. (This is different in other countries)
a. Yes, he is =acting= as PIC, but hasn't fulfilled =any= conditions for logging it. There is no rule anywhere that says that one gets to =log= PIC by =acting= as PIC without there being some other condition. 61.51 gives you the universe of when you can log something. "Acting as PIC" standing alone, is not one of them.
b. This flight doesn't fit into the 61.51 "more than one pilot required" rule. Unlike simulated instrument flight which under 61.109 requires more than one pilot, there is no FAR that requires "more than one pilot" on a flight under IFR. True, the SP is required for the flight since he's the instrument-rated one, but he's the =only= one that's required.
Scenario 5: Under IFR in IMC. (FP under the hood) FP is not instrument rated; SP is instrument rated:
There's no clear answer from the FAA on this one. Some say that since it's actual IMC, it can't be simulated IMC. Therefore, no safety pilot is necessary and we apply the rules from Scenario 4.
Others argue that purpose of a safety pilot is to fulfill "see and avoid" responsibilities. Those obligations exist even in IMC and the FP is in no position to meet them even if she temporarily flies out of a cloud. So, even in IMC, if FP is hooded, the SP is required and the rules from Scenario 2 apply.
Scenario 6: Under IFR in IMC. FP under the hood. FP is instrument rated; SP is not instrument rated:
Same argument as Scenario 5. If you view the SP as required, we're under the same logging rules as Scenario 3. If you view the SP as not required, then we just have a flight by an instrument-rated pilot in IMC and the SP logs nothing.
==============================
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