Safety pilot on IFR FP?
- Thread starter Snow
- Start date
GaTechKid
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
And if so, what does the safety pilot log other than PIC? SE time also?
Thanks,
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A non-instrument rated pilot cannot act as PIC for a flight conducted under instrument flight rules (since you are on an IFR flight plan) and therefore cannot log PIC. Am I right in thinking this?
And if so, what does the safety pilot log other than PIC? SE time also?
Thanks,
[/ QUOTE ]
A non-instrument rated pilot cannot act as PIC for a flight conducted under instrument flight rules (since you are on an IFR flight plan) and therefore cannot log PIC. Am I right in thinking this?
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And if so, what does the safety pilot log other than PIC? SE time also?
Thanks,
[/ QUOTE ]
A non-instrument rated pilot cannot act as PIC for a flight conducted under instrument flight rules (since you are on an IFR flight plan) and therefore cannot log PIC. Am I right in thinking this?
[/ QUOTE ]
You're halfway right....a non-instrument rated pilot cannot ACT as PIC, but (s)he can LOG PIC.
[ QUOTE ]
And if so, what does the safety pilot log other than PIC? SE time also?
Thanks,
[/ QUOTE ]
A non-instrument rated pilot cannot act as PIC for a flight conducted under instrument flight rules (since you are on an IFR flight plan) and therefore cannot log PIC. Am I right in thinking this?
[/ QUOTE ]
You're halfway right....a non-instrument rated pilot cannot ACT as PIC, but (s)he can LOG PIC.
GaTechKid
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
You're halfway right....a non-instrument rated pilot cannot ACT as PIC, but (s)he can LOG PIC.
[/ QUOTE ]
I should have clarified better. The non-instrument rated pilot is the safety pilot for this flight conducted under instrument flight rules. The only way a safety pilot can log PIC time is because they are acting as PIC of an aircraft under the regulations which the flight is conducted. Since the flight is being conducted under IFR only the instrument rated pilot, who is under the hood, can both act as PIC and log PIC time. The safety pilot is still a required crewmember because of simulated instrument and can log SIC time.
The only way I see the non-instrument rated pilot logging PIC time under IFR is if he flies the airplane.
You're halfway right....a non-instrument rated pilot cannot ACT as PIC, but (s)he can LOG PIC.
[/ QUOTE ]
I should have clarified better. The non-instrument rated pilot is the safety pilot for this flight conducted under instrument flight rules. The only way a safety pilot can log PIC time is because they are acting as PIC of an aircraft under the regulations which the flight is conducted. Since the flight is being conducted under IFR only the instrument rated pilot, who is under the hood, can both act as PIC and log PIC time. The safety pilot is still a required crewmember because of simulated instrument and can log SIC time.
The only way I see the non-instrument rated pilot logging PIC time under IFR is if he flies the airplane.
Hootie
Old Skool
Heres a Q im confused on. I have a student pilot that owns a pa28-235. If he solos he will be PIC, and will need a HP endorsment. In that case the HP endorsment spot in the logbook states blah blah blah of pilot certificate# blah blah. I just put to the side [student pilot certificate #1234567] and left that to be crossed out and a spot to put pilot certificate number when the time comes. Did I do this right? It sucks because I am the ONLY cfi in my area and i've got no one to ask up so to speak. While on the subject of endorsments, when something (student pilot certs/ logbooks) asks for your cfi# do you cfi's put just the number or do you put out the whole 1234567CFI or whatever? Looking back in my own logs it looks like its been done both ways. And while Im rolling if Im not a CFII and I have a student (not a pp) who has some work done on his plane at another airport and we have to shoot an approach to get back into our home airport how does that get logged. I know I can give sim ifr instruction but how does actual go down? The way I see it is either it gets logged like normal duel with some actual IMC or either I dont log duel while in the clouds and he can't log anything while in the clouds. I appreciate all your wisdom SO much, Ive been really stumped on these questions. Thanks!
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
I was taught that you were always supposed to do it like this, 1234567CFI.
Ralgha
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Heres a Q im confused on. I have a student pilot that owns a pa28-235. If he solos he will be PIC, and will need a HP endorsment. In that case the HP endorsment spot in the logbook states blah blah blah of pilot certificate# blah blah. I just put to the side [student pilot certificate #1234567] and left that to be crossed out and a spot to put pilot certificate number when the time comes. Did I do this right?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually they don't need the HP endorsement while a student pilot. Your endorsement for them to solo a specific make and model airplane covers it. However, once they get their private license, they will immediatly need the HP endorsement, which you can immediatly give, since you gave them all their training in the HP airplane.
[ QUOTE ]
It sucks because I am the ONLY cfi in my area and i've got no one to ask up so to speak. While on the subject of endorsments, when something (student pilot certs/ logbooks) asks for your cfi# do you cfi's put just the number or do you put out the whole 1234567CFI or whatever? Looking back in my own logs it looks like its been done both ways.
[/ QUOTE ]
1234567CFI
[ QUOTE ]
And while Im rolling if Im not a CFII and I have a student (not a pp) who has some work done on his plane at another airport and we have to shoot an approach to get back into our home airport how does that get logged. I know I can give sim ifr instruction but how does actual go down? The way I see it is either it gets logged like normal duel with some actual IMC or either I dont log duel while in the clouds and he can't log anything while in the clouds. I appreciate all your wisdom SO much, Ive been really stumped on these questions. Thanks!
[/ QUOTE ]
Him logging nothing and you logging only PIC time, not dual given, will raise no questions. If he logs the time as instruction received and you log dual given, while under the right circumstances it COULD be legal, it might raise some questions.
Heres a Q im confused on. I have a student pilot that owns a pa28-235. If he solos he will be PIC, and will need a HP endorsment. In that case the HP endorsment spot in the logbook states blah blah blah of pilot certificate# blah blah. I just put to the side [student pilot certificate #1234567] and left that to be crossed out and a spot to put pilot certificate number when the time comes. Did I do this right?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually they don't need the HP endorsement while a student pilot. Your endorsement for them to solo a specific make and model airplane covers it. However, once they get their private license, they will immediatly need the HP endorsement, which you can immediatly give, since you gave them all their training in the HP airplane.
[ QUOTE ]
It sucks because I am the ONLY cfi in my area and i've got no one to ask up so to speak. While on the subject of endorsments, when something (student pilot certs/ logbooks) asks for your cfi# do you cfi's put just the number or do you put out the whole 1234567CFI or whatever? Looking back in my own logs it looks like its been done both ways.
[/ QUOTE ]
1234567CFI
[ QUOTE ]
And while Im rolling if Im not a CFII and I have a student (not a pp) who has some work done on his plane at another airport and we have to shoot an approach to get back into our home airport how does that get logged. I know I can give sim ifr instruction but how does actual go down? The way I see it is either it gets logged like normal duel with some actual IMC or either I dont log duel while in the clouds and he can't log anything while in the clouds. I appreciate all your wisdom SO much, Ive been really stumped on these questions. Thanks!
[/ QUOTE ]
Him logging nothing and you logging only PIC time, not dual given, will raise no questions. If he logs the time as instruction received and you log dual given, while under the right circumstances it COULD be legal, it might raise some questions.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Heres a Q im confused on. I have a student pilot that owns a pa28-235. If he solos he will be PIC, and will need a HP endorsment. In that case the HP endorsment spot in the logbook states blah blah blah of pilot certificate# blah blah. I just put to the side [student pilot certificate #1234567] and left that to be crossed out and a spot to put pilot certificate number when the time comes. Did I do this right?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually they don't need the HP endorsement while a student pilot. Your endorsement for them to solo a specific make and model airplane covers it. However, once they get their private license, they will immediatly need the HP endorsement, which you can immediatly give, since you gave them all their training in the HP airplane.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whhoooaaa...I have to question this one slightly, Ralgha. 61.31 states that in order to operate a (high performance aircraft) as PIC, you must receive a one-time endorsement on the areas....blah...blah...blah. It doesn't say anything about holding a PPL.
My thesis is that the HP endorsement is required before the student can solo.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And while Im rolling if Im not a CFII and I have a student (not a pp) who has some work done on his plane at another airport and we have to shoot an approach to get back into our home airport how does that get logged. I know I can give sim ifr instruction but how does actual go down? The way I see it is either it gets logged like normal duel with some actual IMC or either I dont log duel while in the clouds and he can't log anything while in the clouds. I appreciate all your wisdom SO much, Ive been really stumped on these questions. Thanks!
[/ QUOTE ]
Him logging nothing and you logging only PIC time, not dual given, will raise no questions. If he logs the time as instruction received and you log dual given, while under the right circumstances it COULD be legal, it might raise some questions.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that it would even raise any questions. I'd say log it as dial given, have him log it as actual and dual received. There is a University aviation program located in Middle Tennessee (which shall remain nameless....
) that's actually doing integrated flight training - Private and Instrument, at the same time.
Now, while I'm not sure how it's going to work out, it's definately legal. There's nothing that say that you need a PPL to receive instrument training!!
[ QUOTE ]
Heres a Q im confused on. I have a student pilot that owns a pa28-235. If he solos he will be PIC, and will need a HP endorsment. In that case the HP endorsment spot in the logbook states blah blah blah of pilot certificate# blah blah. I just put to the side [student pilot certificate #1234567] and left that to be crossed out and a spot to put pilot certificate number when the time comes. Did I do this right?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually they don't need the HP endorsement while a student pilot. Your endorsement for them to solo a specific make and model airplane covers it. However, once they get their private license, they will immediatly need the HP endorsement, which you can immediatly give, since you gave them all their training in the HP airplane.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whhoooaaa...I have to question this one slightly, Ralgha. 61.31 states that in order to operate a (high performance aircraft) as PIC, you must receive a one-time endorsement on the areas....blah...blah...blah. It doesn't say anything about holding a PPL.
My thesis is that the HP endorsement is required before the student can solo.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And while Im rolling if Im not a CFII and I have a student (not a pp) who has some work done on his plane at another airport and we have to shoot an approach to get back into our home airport how does that get logged. I know I can give sim ifr instruction but how does actual go down? The way I see it is either it gets logged like normal duel with some actual IMC or either I dont log duel while in the clouds and he can't log anything while in the clouds. I appreciate all your wisdom SO much, Ive been really stumped on these questions. Thanks!
[/ QUOTE ]
Him logging nothing and you logging only PIC time, not dual given, will raise no questions. If he logs the time as instruction received and you log dual given, while under the right circumstances it COULD be legal, it might raise some questions.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that it would even raise any questions. I'd say log it as dial given, have him log it as actual and dual received. There is a University aviation program located in Middle Tennessee (which shall remain nameless....
Now, while I'm not sure how it's going to work out, it's definately legal. There's nothing that say that you need a PPL to receive instrument training!!
Ralgha
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Heres a Q im confused on. I have a student pilot that owns a pa28-235. If he solos he will be PIC, and will need a HP endorsment. In that case the HP endorsment spot in the logbook states blah blah blah of pilot certificate# blah blah. I just put to the side [student pilot certificate #1234567] and left that to be crossed out and a spot to put pilot certificate number when the time comes. Did I do this right?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually they don't need the HP endorsement while a student pilot. Your endorsement for them to solo a specific make and model airplane covers it. However, once they get their private license, they will immediatly need the HP endorsement, which you can immediatly give, since you gave them all their training in the HP airplane.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whhoooaaa...I have to question this one slightly, Ralgha. 61.31 states that in order to operate a (high performance aircraft) as PIC, you must receive a one-time endorsement on the areas....blah...blah...blah. It doesn't say anything about holding a PPL.
My thesis is that the HP endorsement is required before the student can solo.
[/ QUOTE ]
61.31
(k) Exceptions.
(1) This section does not require a category and class rating for aircraft not type-certificated as airplanes, rotorcraft, gliders, lighter-than-air aircraft, powered-lifts, powered parachutes, or weight-shift-control aircraft.
(2) The rating limitations of this section do not apply to—
(i) An applicant when taking a practical test given by an examiner;
(ii) The holder of a student pilot certificate;
(iii) The holder of a pilot certificate when operating an aircraft under the authority of—
(A) A provisional type certificate; or
(B) An experimental certificate, unless the operation involves carrying a passenger;
(iv) The holder of a pilot certificate with a lighter-than-air category rating when operating a balloon;
(v) The holder of a recreational pilot certificate operating under the provisions of §61.101(h); or
(vi) The holder of a sport pilot certificate when operating a light-sport aircraft.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And while Im rolling if Im not a CFII and I have a student (not a pp) who has some work done on his plane at another airport and we have to shoot an approach to get back into our home airport how does that get logged. I know I can give sim ifr instruction but how does actual go down? The way I see it is either it gets logged like normal duel with some actual IMC or either I dont log duel while in the clouds and he can't log anything while in the clouds. I appreciate all your wisdom SO much, Ive been really stumped on these questions. Thanks!
[/ QUOTE ]
Him logging nothing and you logging only PIC time, not dual given, will raise no questions. If he logs the time as instruction received and you log dual given, while under the right circumstances it COULD be legal, it might raise some questions.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that it would even raise any questions. I'd say log it as dial given, have him log it as actual and dual received. There is a University aviation program located in Middle Tennessee (which shall remain nameless....
) that's actually doing integrated flight training - Private and Instrument, at the same time.
Now, while I'm not sure how it's going to work out, it's definately legal. There's nothing that say that you need a PPL to receive instrument training!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Right, but the CFI does need an instrument rating to provide instrument training for a rating or non-VFR type rating blah blah blah. So, since in this case the training is not for an instrument rating, it's technically legal, but it could raise some questions that would be better left alone.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Heres a Q im confused on. I have a student pilot that owns a pa28-235. If he solos he will be PIC, and will need a HP endorsment. In that case the HP endorsment spot in the logbook states blah blah blah of pilot certificate# blah blah. I just put to the side [student pilot certificate #1234567] and left that to be crossed out and a spot to put pilot certificate number when the time comes. Did I do this right?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually they don't need the HP endorsement while a student pilot. Your endorsement for them to solo a specific make and model airplane covers it. However, once they get their private license, they will immediatly need the HP endorsement, which you can immediatly give, since you gave them all their training in the HP airplane.
[/ QUOTE ]
Whhoooaaa...I have to question this one slightly, Ralgha. 61.31 states that in order to operate a (high performance aircraft) as PIC, you must receive a one-time endorsement on the areas....blah...blah...blah. It doesn't say anything about holding a PPL.
My thesis is that the HP endorsement is required before the student can solo.
[/ QUOTE ]
61.31
(k) Exceptions.
(1) This section does not require a category and class rating for aircraft not type-certificated as airplanes, rotorcraft, gliders, lighter-than-air aircraft, powered-lifts, powered parachutes, or weight-shift-control aircraft.
(2) The rating limitations of this section do not apply to—
(i) An applicant when taking a practical test given by an examiner;
(ii) The holder of a student pilot certificate;
(iii) The holder of a pilot certificate when operating an aircraft under the authority of—
(A) A provisional type certificate; or
(B) An experimental certificate, unless the operation involves carrying a passenger;
(iv) The holder of a pilot certificate with a lighter-than-air category rating when operating a balloon;
(v) The holder of a recreational pilot certificate operating under the provisions of §61.101(h); or
(vi) The holder of a sport pilot certificate when operating a light-sport aircraft.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And while Im rolling if Im not a CFII and I have a student (not a pp) who has some work done on his plane at another airport and we have to shoot an approach to get back into our home airport how does that get logged. I know I can give sim ifr instruction but how does actual go down? The way I see it is either it gets logged like normal duel with some actual IMC or either I dont log duel while in the clouds and he can't log anything while in the clouds. I appreciate all your wisdom SO much, Ive been really stumped on these questions. Thanks!
[/ QUOTE ]
Him logging nothing and you logging only PIC time, not dual given, will raise no questions. If he logs the time as instruction received and you log dual given, while under the right circumstances it COULD be legal, it might raise some questions.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that it would even raise any questions. I'd say log it as dial given, have him log it as actual and dual received. There is a University aviation program located in Middle Tennessee (which shall remain nameless....
Now, while I'm not sure how it's going to work out, it's definately legal. There's nothing that say that you need a PPL to receive instrument training!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Right, but the CFI does need an instrument rating to provide instrument training for a rating or non-VFR type rating blah blah blah. So, since in this case the training is not for an instrument rating, it's technically legal, but it could raise some questions that would be better left alone.
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
Hootie, I was taught in the 141 arena and was taught to sign everything 123456789CFII or 123456789ATP (if you have an ATP and are performing company training)
As far as the HP thing I would call AOPA or the FSDO and ask just to CYA.
As far as the HP thing I would call AOPA or the FSDO and ask just to CYA.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
Touche'!! I've never even looked at the exceptions!! Thanks, Ralgha!!!
The CFII thing...I see what you're saying. That is kind of a twisted situation. I knew a guy that would take his primary students in IMC instead of doing simulated instrument. Weird, and I think that was probably way crooked.
I also missed where he said he wasn't a CFII, and I think that could change the whole thing. Point taken.
The CFII thing...I see what you're saying. That is kind of a twisted situation. I knew a guy that would take his primary students in IMC instead of doing simulated instrument. Weird, and I think that was probably way crooked.
I also missed where he said he wasn't a CFII, and I think that could change the whole thing. Point taken.
Hootie
Old Skool
You guys are the •!!! Thanks a ton. I called my local fsdo and I think ralgha might have caught 61.31 better than the fed guy. Fed guy told me that the student needs a one time endorsment and the student pilot cert # will work even after his checkride (I still plan on changing it to pilot cert # whatever at that time). But the fars make it seem like a student pilot doesnt need the endorsment, but it never hurts to CYA. As for the IMC he said I can log it as duel given (just not instrument duel given, (do you guys track them separately?)) and actual imc, but the student can't log it as actual. Does that make sense to you guys? I not crying over .4 duel given in the logbook I just wan't to know my stuff correctly.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
for your cfi# do you cfi's put just the number or do you put out the whole 1234567CFI or whatever?
[/ QUOTE ]Boy. This is a tough one!
How about this easy to follow checklist:
1. pocket or purse -- REACH INTO
2. wallet or certificate holder -- OPEN
3. Instructor certificate -- OBTAIN and EXAMINE
4. "Certificate Number" -- READ and COPY and WRITE on endorsement.
for your cfi# do you cfi's put just the number or do you put out the whole 1234567CFI or whatever?
[/ QUOTE ]Boy. This is a tough one!
How about this easy to follow checklist:
1. pocket or purse -- REACH INTO
2. wallet or certificate holder -- OPEN
3. Instructor certificate -- OBTAIN and EXAMINE
4. "Certificate Number" -- READ and COPY and WRITE on endorsement.
Instrument_Proficient
New Member
Here's a thought....... What good is a PP acting as "Safety Pilot" in IMC conditions on an IFR flight plan if the instrument rated pilot flying gets "loopy" (disoriented) in the clouds??????? I was alway's under the impression that a "Safety Pilot" was only for "Simulated" IMC conditions.
Seriously, a safety pilot is worthless in IMC if they are not instrument rated...
IP
Seriously, a safety pilot is worthless in IMC if they are not instrument rated...
IP