Runway required during clearance?

JordanD

Here so I don’t get fined
So tonight I'm coming in and the controller tells me to report right base, but doesn't specify a runway. I had the ATIS and knew what runway they were using, but a few seconds later I decide to key up anyway and confirm which runway he wants me reporting right base for. Instead of just giving me a runway he says something to the effect of "I thought you said you had information Zulu..." Alright, I do have Zulu, I heard what the active runway was, but does a little clarification hurt?

So I'm wondering, is the controller required to tell me which runway to expect when he gives me instructions for what pattern to fly or is that only absolutely required when I'm receiving a clearance to land? It seems like in the time he spent giving me a smartass answer me he could have just given me the runway. Came across as a little arrogant/unneccesary but oh well.
 
In my opinion the controller was being an idiot. He should have told you what runway to report the right base for. Air traffic controllers shouldn't leave anything up to being assumed by the pilot. They should be giving clear and concise instructions. If something were to happen, I guarantee it would come back to bite the controller in the ass.

Any safety team member will always tell you more information is better than lack of information. I wouldn't worry about it.
 
No, if you are using the advertised runway and there is only one runway in use, then no, the controller does not have to tell you which runway to enter your base on. He is expecting you to do that on the advertised runway (if it is not the advertised runway, that is a different ballgame). Also, in your landing clearance, the controller does not have to state the runway number if it is on the advertised runway, and there is only one advertised runway. Now, I'm not saying that the controller should not do that, and it might not be a good practice, but it isn't required. Depending on how busy the controller is, a good controller learns which elements are extra, and not required, and might omit them, to save frequency congestion. Again, I'm not advocating it, but the controller does not have to give the runway. This is straight out of the 7110.65, so if something happens, I can't see how it would bite the controller in the ass, since he did everything "by the book". Again, though, I don't think ever have omitted the runway number, I'm just saying it is not required in all cases.

3-10-1. LANDING INFORMATION​
Provide current landing information, as appropriate,
to arriving aircraft. Landing information contained in
the ATIS broadcast may be omitted if the pilot states
the appropriate ATIS code. Runway, wind, and
altimeter may be omitted if a pilot uses the phrase
“have numbers.” Issue landing information by
including the following:​
NOTE​
Pilot
use of “have numbers” does not indicate receipt of the
ATIS broadcast.

a.​
Specific traffic pattern information (may be
omitted if the aircraft is to circle the airport to the left).

PHRASEOLOGY​
ENTER
LEFT/RIGHT BASE.
STRAIGHT-IN.
MAKE STRAIGHT-IN.
STRAIGHT-IN APPROVED.
RIGHT TRAFFIC.
MAKE RIGHT TRAFFIC.
RIGHT TRAFFIC APPROVED. CONTINUE.

b.​
Runway in use.

c.​
Surface wind.

d.​
Altimeter setting.

REFERENCE​
FAAO
JO 7110.65, Para 2-7-1, Current Settings.

e.​
Any supplementary information.

f.​
Clearance to land.

g.​
Requests for additional position reports. Use
prominent geographical fixes which can be easily
recognized from the air, preferably those depicted on
sectional charts. This does not preclude the use of the
legs of the traffic pattern as reporting points.

NOTE​
At
some locations, VFR checkpoints are depicted on
sectional aeronautical and terminal area charts. In
selecting geographical fixes, depicted VFR checkpoints
are preferred unless the pilot exhibits a familiarity with the
local area.

h.​
Ceiling and visibility if either is below basic
VFR minima.

i.​
Low level wind shear or microburst advisories
when available.

REFERENCE​
FAAO
JO 7110.65, Para3-1-8, Low Level Wind Shear/Microburst
Advisories.

j.​
Issue braking action for the runway in use as
received from pilots or the airport management when
Braking Action Advisories are in effect.

REFERENCE​
FAAO

JO 7110.65, Para 3-3-5, Braking Action Advisories.

3-10-5. LANDING CLEARANCE​
a.​
Issue landing clearance. Restate the landing
runway whenever more than one runway is active, or
an instrument approach is being conducted to a closed
runway.

PHRASEOLOGY​
CLEARED
TO LAND,
or
RUNWAY (designator) CLEARED TO LAND.

b.​
Do not clear an aircraft for a full-stop,
touch-and-go, stop-and-go, option, or unrestricted
low approach when a departing aircraft has been
instructed to taxi into position and hold, is taxiing into
position, or is holding in position on the same runway.
The landing clearance may be issued once the aircraft
in position has started takeoff roll.

c.​
“USN NOT APPLICABLE.” Inform the closest
aircraft that is requesting a full-stop, touch-and-go,
stop-and-go, option, or unrestricted low approaches
when there is traffic authorized to taxi into position
and hold on the same runway.

EXAMPLE-​
“Delta One, continue, traffic holding in position.”
or
“Delta One, runway one eight, continue, traffic holding in
position.”​
d.​
During same runway operations, while TIPH is
being applied, landing clearance must be withheld if
the safety logic system to that runway is inoperative
or in limited configuration or conditions are less than
reported ceiling 800 feet or visibility less than
2miles.

EXAMPLE​
If
the safety logic system is operating in full core alert
runway configuration:
“Delta One, cleared to land. Traffic holding in position.”
or
“Delta One, runway one eight, cleared to land. Traffic
holding in position.”

e.​
USA/USN. Issue surface wind when clearing an
aircraft to land, touch‐and‐go, stop‐and‐go, low
approach, or the option. Restate the landing runway
whenever there is a possibility of a conflict with
another aircraft which is using or is planning to use
another runway.

PHRASEOLOGY​
WIND
(surface wind direction and velocity), CLEARED
TO LAND,
or
WIND (surface wind direction and velocity), RUNWAY
(designator) CLEARED TO LAND.

NOTE​
A
clearance to land means that appropriate separation on
the landing runway will be ensured. A landing clearance
does not relieve the pilot from compliance with any

previously issued restriction.
 
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Required or not, when a pilot requests a clarification, "I thought you said you had information Zulu..." is a piss-poor answer.
 
When a controller gives me a duplicate clearance, I just read it back and go with the flow. Whatever. However, some pilots always feel the need to be smart and point out the controller's error. "WELL, YOU ALREADY TOLD ME, BUT YEA, WE'LL FLY A HEADING OF 020 AND CLIMB TO 5000".

Sounds like the same thing, except turned around.
 
Required or not, when a pilot requests a clarification, "I thought you said you had information Zulu..." is a piss-poor answer.

When a controller gives me a duplicate clearance, I just read it back and go with the flow. Whatever. However, some pilots always feel the need to be smart and point out the controller's error. "WELL, YOU ALREADY TOLD ME, BUT YEA, WE'LL FLY A HEADING OF 020 AND CLIMB TO 5000".

Sounds like the same thing, except turned around.

Absolutely. Both are cases that waste time on the radio that doesn't need to be wasted. And both are cases of somebody being a poopy head. There are some pilots that just don't get the fact that the controllers are humans. Use a little courtesy and politeness on the radio will go a long way, especially if you frequent the airspace/airport often.

I know some pilots that are based at my home airport that are downright jerks whenever they talk to ATC, and they get treated appropriately.
 
Required or not, when a pilot requests a clarification, "I thought you said you had information Zulu..." is a piss-poor answer.

:yeahthat:

I should have said in my response that, yeah, not the response I would have given, I would have just said "enter/report right base for runway xx". No reason for the attacks by the controllers. The pilot side of me may have done the same thing, by asking to clarify the runway if I was unsure.
 
When a controller gives me a duplicate clearance, I just read it back and go with the flow. Whatever. However, some pilots always feel the need to be smart and point out the controller's error. "WELL, YOU ALREADY TOLD ME, BUT YEA, WE'LL FLY A HEADING OF 020 AND CLIMB TO 5000".

Sounds like the same thing, except turned around.

I was working a busy departure push the other day and COA7 a 777 rolls of the airport and checks in, "departure COA7 with ya 1.3." Well, I know the procedure is for a turbine jet to get 4,000 for initial altitude; however, when you have a bunch of downwinds the aircraft has to clear that are at 6,000 feet, it is nice to get a clarification from the pilot that he is indeed going to stop at 4,000. Almost all jets initial calls goes something like, "departure, BTA2342 with ya, 2.6 for 4 thousand."

Well...for one, it is a hit or miss if a heavy jet actually calls himself a heavy, but the issue I had....here it is below:

COA7: departure, COA7 with ya 1.3
Dep N: COA7 heavy, departure, radar contact, maintain 4,000.
COA7: COA7 wilco.
Dep N: COA7 heavy, maintain 4,000.
COA7: COA7 wilco.
Dep N: COA7 heavy, maintain 4,000, readback assigned altitude.
COA7: COA7 we will maintain 4,000 like we readback on clearance delivery when they issued our clearance.
Dep N: COA7 heavy, thank you.

Now...it would have been a lot easier for the pilot to just say maintain 4,000...or, check on with the altitude you are climbing to. Sometimes controllers mess up and give you a wrong altitude or more than often than that, pilots mess something up.

Don't be an ass pilot. How many times have you gotten a clearance PDC and flown the wrong route because you don't know what a Preferential Departure Routing (PDR) is and then try to pawn the blame off on me?
 
So tonight I'm coming in and the controller tells me to report right base, but doesn't specify a runway. I had the ATIS and knew what runway they were using, but a few seconds later I decide to key up anyway and confirm which runway he wants me reporting right base for. Instead of just giving me a runway he says something to the effect of "I thought you said you had information Zulu..." Alright, I do have Zulu, I heard what the active runway was, but does a little clarification hurt?

So I'm wondering, is the controller required to tell me which runway to expect when he gives me instructions for what pattern to fly or is that only absolutely required when I'm receiving a clearance to land? It seems like in the time he spent giving me a smartass answer me he could have just given me the runway. Came across as a little arrogant/unneccesary but oh well.

I believe they are supposed to give you the active, for it could cause a problem if they did not. I ran into a similar situation upstate where I was also given A right base to land with an unclear runway (I wanted to make sure the Tower and I were on the same page) And asked. I was given a "you outta know" type talk about active runways and was given a lesson on "left unless published otherwise" I didn't bother teaching someone about the difference of left and right. Me thinks he was bored and or had a bad day, it happens to the best of us =)
 
I believe they are supposed to give you the active, for it could cause a problem if they did not. I ran into a similar situation upstate where I was also given A right base to land with an unclear runway (I wanted to make sure the Tower and I were on the same page) And asked. I was given a "you outta know" type talk about active runways and was given a lesson on "left unless published otherwise" I didn't bother teaching someone about the difference of left and right. Me thinks he was bored and or had a bad day, it happens to the best of us =)

If it is in the ATIS, then you know what the active is, and therefore, by the book, it does not have to be given. As I said earlier, though, I still do say which runway I want them on, and would not scold a pilot for asking, because that accomplishes nothing. I'm just saying that the controller does not do anything wrong by not stating the runway if it is advertised in the ATIS.
 
If it is in the ATIS, then you know what the active is, and therefore, by the book, it does not have to be given. As I said earlier, though, I still do say which runway I want them on, and would not scold a pilot for asking, because that accomplishes nothing. I'm just saying that the controller does not do anything wrong by not stating the runway if it is advertised in the ATIS.

If there is more than one runway at the airport, the controller needs to state the runway....why leave any room for confusion and interpretation?
 
If there is more than one runway at the airport, the controller needs to state the runway....why leave any room for confusion and interpretation?


Again, as I stated above, I'm not saying what I would do, or what would make sense to a lot of people, but no, they do not. Look at my first post in this thread, and I have info from the 7110.65 to back it up. While I disagree with the controller the OP posted about, one thing you are taught as a controller is that when things get busy, you need to learn what can be eliminated, such as the wind, or runway, and when they can be eliminated. You may say that it only take a few extra seconds to say the runway, but if you have an 80-100 operation hour on one runway, you end up saving a lot of time with information that has already been broadcast on the ATIS.
 
Well...for one, it is a hit or miss if a heavy jet actually calls himself a heavy, but the issue I had....here it is below:

COA7: departure, COA7 with ya 1.3
Dep N: COA7 heavy, departure, radar contact, maintain 4,000.
COA7: COA7 wilco.
Dep N: COA7 heavy, maintain 4,000.
COA7: COA7 wilco.
Dep N: COA7 heavy, maintain 4,000, readback assigned altitude.
COA7: COA7 we will maintain 4,000 like we readback on clearance delivery when they issued our clearance.
Dep N: COA7 heavy, thank you.

Wow. What an ass.
 
I really really really try hard not to snap at controllers even when they snap at me. I've gotten to the point where I re-state or reiterate in a very calm, slow speaking voice.
 
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