Runway Incursion at JFK Last Night.

Baronman said:
But if he doesn't read back a hold short clearance can he clear the next aircraft for TO?
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jayd1038 said:
But yes, you are supposed to get "hold short instructions back" and he should have requested it after they didn't give it.
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I haven't heard any clips besides the one posted by @RussVan , but based on that, the controller had already cleared JBU for takeoff and tried to get BWA to hold short when it appeared BWA was going to cross 22R without a clearance.
 
jayd1038 said:
My main point is that after the UAL crew told her where they were...
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They gave her at least 3 bad position reports before giving her a somewhat better one that at least had the runway correct. Also, the link posted above is edited and incomplete. Below is a full unedited recording of the ATC tapes including land line communication. Mistakes were made on both parties no doubt. It is the quickness to judge that bothers me. Have you never read a clearance back wrong? Because hearback/readback is what this boils down to. UAL read gave her at least 3 bad position reports, do you think it is beyond the realm of possibility that the good one was heard wrong? Should you lose your job because you were assigned a speed but turned to a heading instead? It happens more often than you think, especially with non-Native English speakers. Have some empathy.

 
greg1016 said:
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They didn't do her any favors that I admit, but I still can't get over how after all the confusion she just ignored the protocol and cleared another plane to take-off. She then got an attitude with them when she was dead wrong. I do empathize a little sure, but can't empathize too much b/c the US pilot did exactly what she should have, decided to wait until it was all cleared up. In spite of being wrong she proceeded to cop an attitude and act unprofessional even swearing over coms. I get it's stressful but you are still expected to maintain a proper level of professionalism. She failed to do so. In fact in my ATC classes we were shown this video from 25 year vets of ATC on what not to do lol.

Just my take on it, not intend to ruffle any feathers. In the end we can all be fortunate nothing catastrophic happened and we can hope that she at least learned from the mistake and will think twice given a second shot.
 
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Ground Control may take a big hit on this incident too. I'd think the Ground Controller should have told the Local Controller a departure was waiting at the intersection. Don't know that they didn't but fault may not all rest with the Local Controller.
 
greg1016 said:
but the UAL had a pilot deviation turning down the wrong taxiway and then again when they reported on RWY 23R instead of L. Would you also be surprised to hear if any member of that flight crew was still working? I'll bet they are.
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My commuter pad roommate was involved in a similar low vis situation. Started his T/O in a B-727 and just prior to rotation his right wing tip hit a lost DC-9 that made a wrong turn onto the active. He safely aborted but it did not turn out well for the -9.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Wayne_County_Airport_runway_collision
 
greg1016 said:
They gave her at least 3 bad position reports before giving her a somewhat better one that at least had the runway correct. Also, the link posted above is edited and incomplete. Below is a full unedited recording of the ATC tapes including land line communication. Mistakes were made on both parties no doubt. It is the quickness to judge that bothers me. Have you never read a clearance back wrong? Because hearback/readback is what this boils down to. UAL read gave her at least 3 bad position reports, do you think it is beyond the realm of possibility that the good one was heard wrong? Should you lose your job because you were assigned a speed but turned to a heading instead? It happens more often than you think, especially with non-Native English speakers. Have some empathy.

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Sorry kiddo but on this i have to diagree, i dont care how may times they gave her the wrong position at some point SHE STOPED LISTENING to what was being said and reevaluate the situation. A good communicator dosent just listen to the message but how the message is given back . After the crew knew that they were on the active rwy just listen to the tone of their voices, you can tell by that somthing wasnt right but she never picked up on it, she had heard what she wanted to hear and made up her mind and that was that! sorry no empathy from me my first 4 years were in control towers with the first 2 in fog country (RAF Bentwaters UK) and this was a little over 2 years after Tenerife , if i even thought an aircraft wasnt where it should be I as a E2 could shut down the operation with no questions asked!
 
fholbert said:
Ground Control may take a big hit on this incident too. I'd think the Ground Controller should have told the Local Controller a departure was waiting at the intersection. Don't know that they didn't but fault may not all rest with the Local Controller.
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Which situation? The op's topic was an arrival crossing a departure runway.
 
Baronman said:
I recognize the controller's voice in the JFK thing.....What liability does he have? Clearly the Caribbean aircraft shouldn't be crossing a runway that's listed as an active runway on the ATIS. But if he doesn't read back a hold short clearance can he clear the next aircraft for TO?
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A hold short instruction might not have been given yet. You don't hear it until after JBU is already cleared for take off because the controller notices Caribbean isn't stopping.
 
queeno said:
Sorry kiddo but on this i have to diagree, i dont care how may times they gave her the wrong position at some point SHE STOPED LISTENING to what was being said and reevaluate the situation. A good communicator dosent just listen to the message but how the message is given back . After the crew knew that they were on the active rwy just listen to the tone of their voices, you can tell by that somthing wasnt right but she never picked up on it, she had heard what she wanted to hear and made up her mind and that was that! sorry no empathy from me my first 4 years were in control towers with the first 2 in fog country (RAF Bentwaters UK) and this was a little over 2 years after Tenerife , if i even thought an aircraft wasnt where it should be I as a E2 could shut down the operation with no questions asked!
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Not excusing the controller for the a1, I just don't like seeing people so quick to call for heads to roll as though they had never made a mistake themselves. There would have been nothing to talk about if UAL followed it's clearance.
 
greg1016 said:
Not excusing the controller for the a1, I just don't like seeing people so quick to call for heads to roll as though they had never made a mistake themselves. There would have been nothing to talk about if UAL followed it's clearance.
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But the UAL crew realized their mistake and immediately fessed up because they understood the safety implications. The controller, even after several warnings, still tried to get a plane with 100+ people to takeoff. The fact she couldn't grasp the danger in the situation and/or take a second to slow down is very scary to me. We're not scrambling jets for combat here, if something abnormal is happening lets take a minute and figure it out.
 
TrustMeI'maPilot said:
But the UAL crew realized their mistake and immediately fessed up because they understood the safety implications. The controller, even after several warnings, still tried to get a plane with 100+ people to takeoff. The fact she couldn't grasp the danger in the situation and/or take a second to slow down is very scary to me. We're not scrambling jets for combat here, if something abnormal is happening lets take a minute and figure it out.
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Even if you are scrambling for a combat mission, make sure your stuff is right, before you go blasting off.
There are plenty of stories where crews skipped 1 or 2 items on the checklist, and bit them in the ass later.
 
TrustMeI'maPilot said:
But the UAL crew realized their mistake and immediately fessed up because they understood the safety implications. The controller, even after several warnings, still tried to get a plane with 100+ people to takeoff. The fact she couldn't grasp the danger in the situation and/or take a second to slow down is very scary to me. We're not scrambling jets for combat here, if something abnormal is happening lets take a minute and figure it out.
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The UAL and departing FDX came a lot closer to disaster than the UAL and USA ever did. Pilot's authority worked the way it was supposed to there. My point is I don't hear anyone calling for the UAL crew's termination. The comment that set this all off was the poster who made the comment about being glad he got out of LGA alive after hearing a rumor that the controller in question now works there.
 
greg1016 said:
The UAL and departing FDX came a lot closer to disaster than the UAL and USA ever did. Pilot's authority worked the way it was supposed to there. My point is I don't hear anyone calling for the UAL crew's termination. The comment that set this all off was the poster who made the comment about being glad he got out of LGA alive after hearing a rumor that the controller in question now works there.
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Can you really not see the difference between UAL's mistake and the controller's?
 
TrustMeI'maPilot said:
Can you really not see the difference between UAL's mistake and the controller's?
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Absolutely, the UALs mistake resulted in a departing aircraft being so close that from my armchair I can hear it taking off over the radio. The UALs crew failure to make accurate position reports, it's use of nonstandard phraseology, and its failure to just flat out admit to being lost led to a controller having an inaccurate assessment of the situation. I am neither excusing, nor vilifying any party involved. I am making note of the double standard that exists when people make comments about whether or not someone should have a job due to a single mistake, which was not made in a youtube vacuum, but made in the heat of the moment with other contributing factors that may not be readily apparent. You don't hear me saying I won't fly UAL because a member of that crew may still be on the payroll, that is ridiculous. Pure luck is what saved the FDX, the system failed. USA rejecting the takeoff clearance under pilot's authority is what saved them, the system worked.
 
Worst replay I ever saw was at ORD. Local cleared a RJ for takeoff on 32L when there was traffic on a 2.5 mile final for 9R. Halfway down the runway as the RJ lifts off, you hear some say, "oh •!" The aircraft missed by something like 100 feet. The frequency goes quiet for like thirty seconds and then the RJ keys up and says,"What the ---- Chicago?!? What the ----?!?" The opposite direction one at BHM two years ago was nuts as well.
 
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greg1016 said:
Not excusing the controller for the a1, I just don't like seeing people so quick to call for heads to roll as though they had never made a mistake themselves. There would have been nothing to talk about if UAL followed it's clearance.
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Understand and agree 100% but as you probably found out early in your career many things would not have happened if the clrn was followed. the best we can do is learn from others mistakes and like Derg has said stay away from the Big Brown Desk!!!!!!
 
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