Runway Incursion at JFK Last Night.

jayd1038 said:
This is the one that still gets me. I get it's hard to see but my lord she just gets so frustrated and is in such a hurry she clears not one but two a/c while there is an a/c essentially on the active runway. It's like years of training just goes right out the window here.

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Yeah that is baaaaaad. Good job by the USAir guys. Seems like the controller even gets annoyed with them lol
 
One more reason to love the northeast. I mean sure there's an airplane lost on the field somewhere and you can't see it, but now these smartass pilots are slowing up your flow!
 
Runincolorado said:
I am going to be super naive here...but "22R Shortened"? Ive not heard that one before.
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Doing construction on one end or the other. Instead of just closing the entire runway they close just one end and the full length isn't available for take off or landing. Required phraseology (in the last few years I think) when giving a landing or take off clearance.
 
After listening to the crew that crossed without a clearance, where the hell were they? No response to multiple radio calls, and just willy nilly crossing an active runway? What the hell man!
 
mshunter said:
After listening to the crew that crossed without a clearance, where the hell were they? No response to multiple radio calls, and just willy nilly crossing an active runway? What the hell man!
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You've obviously never had the pleasure of operating in the vicinity of Caribbean before. Multiple calls seem to be the norm. Landed in JFK one day CAT II which should have been CAT III. While slowly taxing in, (no SMGS chart in JFK,) they were lost and instead of just stopping and waiting for the follow me truck, continued to blunder around the taxiways. Ground made everyone stop until they could corral Caribbean to the gate.
 
mshunter said:
After listening to the crew that crossed without a clearance, where the hell were they? No response to multiple radio calls, and just willy nilly crossing an active runway? What the hell man!
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It is Live ATC. Not all calls are necessarily recorded as sometimes multiple frequencies are paired into one feed. Not sure if that is the case here. Also, not familiar with JFK procedures, but perhaps they switched to ground frequency without instruction?
 
Bernoulli Fan said:
It is Live ATC. Not all calls are necessarily recorded as sometimes multiple frequencies are paired into one feed. Not sure if that is the case here. Also, not familiar with JFK procedures, but perhaps they switched to ground frequency without instruction?
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I really hate it when I don't get told to call Ground. I don't get out to JFK nowadays, but it's 50-50 as to how to incur the wrath of either Local or Ground (or possibly both): Do I stop and wait for LC to put me over to .8, holding up the whole operation, or proceed as best I can?

(It's obvious when there's an intervening runway to cross; it's less obvious when you've crossed the intervening runways and can't get any words in edgewise. I taxied in once on the south side at LAX and could not get a word in edgewise—so we just went B, C6 to the gate like we always had and not a word was addressed to us...ORD style!)
 
Autothrust Blue said:
I really hate it when I don't get told to call Ground. I don't get out to JFK nowadays, but it's 50-50 as to how to incur the wrath of either Local or Ground (or possibly both): Do I stop and wait for LC to put me over to .8, holding up the whole operation, or proceed as best I can?

(It's obvious when there's an intervening runway to cross; it's less obvious when you've crossed the intervening runways and can't get any words in edgewise. I taxied in once on the south side at LAX and could not get a word in edgewise—so we just went B, C6 to the gate like we always had and not a word was addressed to us...ORD style!)
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I hate that LAX now had new ground freq's that weren't marked on the 10-9 charts...and then started using Clearance for a ground freq/etc...bump that.

I want to move back to the northside of LAX...southside is just a nightmare.
 
jayd1038 said:
Oh great, I was just there like last week, fortunately I survived her.... Can't believe she didn't get canned for that one, just my opinion anyhow.
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It is really easy to quarterback these things in hindsight and with the aid of an animation. I am not defending her clearing the USAir for takeoff, but the UAL had a pilot deviation turning down the wrong taxiway and then again when they reported on RWY 23R instead of L. Would you also be surprised to hear if any member of that flight crew was still working? I'll bet they are. We don't know what time of day it is but we did hear her say that she couldn't see anything from the tower and that 23R reverted to a taxiway only during IMC and at night (I assume it is both night time and IMC based on the controller's words and a fedex departure).


Edit: Don't have to assume, 12/5 at 8:35pm local (night) reported visibility 1/4.
 
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I recognize the controller's voice in the JFK thing.....What liability does he have? Clearly the Caribbean aircraft shouldn't be crossing a runway that's listed as an active runway on the ATIS. But if he doesn't read back a hold short clearance can he clear the next aircraft for TO?
 
greg1016 said:
It is really easy to quarterback these things in hindsight and with the aid of an animation. I am not defending her clearing the USAir for takeoff, but the UAL had a pilot deviation turning down the wrong taxiway and then again when they reported on RWY 23R instead of L. Would you also be surprised to hear if any member of that flight crew was still working? I'll bet they are. We don't know what time of day it is but we did hear her say that she couldn't see anything from the tower and that 23R reverted to a taxiway only during IMC and at night (I assume it is both night time and IMC based on the controller's words and a fedex departure).


Edit: Don't have to assume, 12/5 at 8:35pm local (night) reported visibility 1/4.
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My main point is that after the UAL crew told her where they were, she essentially ignored them and cleared another a/c to depart. I don't blame her for the first clearance at all, she gave the correct instructions and unfortunately that crew couldn't see jack squat and got turned around, something that happens on a good day at times.

The pilot told her they were at Kilo and that someone just took off, now that alone should have signaled her to the fact something was amiss. She then correctly told them to stop, but then went against all logic soon after. She admit she can't see them, but instead she again, the pilot then tells her after some confusion he is on 23L and she even tells them to standby. Knowing her airport she should know 23L conflicts directly with 5R the one she clears the 2nd plane for. Then the pilot tells her again he is on an active runway and she ignores it. Thank god the US pilot decided to ignore her.

Yes the UAL pilot started it off wrong and then told her wrong for a split second where they were until correcting themselves. Her job is to maintain safety on the runway, something she failed to do because she was in a hurry. A fatal mistake in ATC that could of cost hundreds of lives had the US pilot listened.

I agree it's unfortunate for her and easy to piggy back on, but it happened and it's justified to me in my opinion.
 
Baronman said:
I recognize the controller's voice in the JFK thing.....What liability does he have? Clearly the Caribbean aircraft shouldn't be crossing a runway that's listed as an active runway on the ATIS. But if he doesn't read back a hold short clearance can he clear the next aircraft for TO?
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Eh he isn't really supposed to, but it wouldn't be the first time I'm sure, especially at a place like JFK. But yes, you are supposed to get "hold short instructions back" and he should have requested it after they didn't give it.
 
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