Round out & Flare

Mandla

Mandla

New Member
I've got 12hrs and have just got back to flying today after not having flown since February. Basically, I'm looking forward to soloeing within the next 3-to-6 hours but as of today, I found myself once again having trouble judging the correct point of the flare. My instructor tells me it all comes down to individual judgement... BUT doesn't good judgement come from experience? I guess what he is trying to say is I need to keep doing it again...and again. I do understand that for every pilot, there is a day, time and place when it all comes together but as of today, i guess Im just having difficulty appreciating that fact. How did you guys do it?
 
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I've got 12hrs and have just got back to flying today after not having flown since February. Basically, I'm looking forward to soloeing within the next 3-to-6 hours but as of today, I found myself once again having trouble judging the correct point of the flare. My instructor tells me it all comes down to individual judgement... BUT doesn't good judgement come from experience? I guess what he is trying to say is I need to keep doing it again...and again. I do understand that for every pilot, there is a day, time and place when it all comes together but as of today, i guess Im just having difficulty appreciating that fact. How did you guys do it?

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It took me a long time to get the right picture for landing, but once I got it down, I feel I'm pretty good.
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What finally helped me nail it was learning to look further down the runway, toward the horizon, at the big picture to judge the flare. If he approves, maybe have your instructor do a proper flare to landing while you force yourself to look down the runway toward the end, remembering that picture in your mind. Then on the next pattern, you do the flare while looking down the runway again recreating that same picture. Don't fret... it can take a long time to learn landings, but once you do you might be even better than most.
 
Man do I understand how you feel. I still am not very good at judging it and I have my PPL and 80 hours. The best advice I can offer is to look further down the runway. That was my problem. If I look a ways down the runway, I tend to be able to just see when I am near the ground. Don't try and use the altimeter and the airspeed. When you get down that far, just fly the plane.

I flew with Grabo a few weeks ago and it is sickening. He flares and holds it off about an inch above the runway. I figure, you have landing gear made to absorb a shock...use them. Whats three feet falling out of the air between friends anyways...
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What's already been said is good advice. When you're driving where do you look? Right in front of your car or down the road?

What kind of plane are you flying? One of the most difficult things I had to do doing during training was looking at the end of the runway, I had to force myself to do it. Another thing I like to teach is to fly down the runway in ground effect, trying to keep the wheels from touching. That helps people get the hang for what ground effect feels like and get the picture for how low you are when you're in ground effect. It's been awhile since I've been in a Cessna, but that method works great in a Warrior (or other low wing airplanes I'm sure).

Good luck!
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Dude, you haven't flown for almost four months. A little rust is natural.

Think of it this way. The most highly trained athletes in the world have something called the preseason, so they can shake off the rust and tune up.

You are a guy with 12 hours total time, so your recovery curve is going to be steeper.

The trick I learned, in addition to what others here have said, was to be gentle with the airplane and not yank back the yoke and float/stall. It's a very subtle move and the hardest thing for me to learn was to not muscle the plane, but to finesse it.

You'll get it.
 
Stabilized approaches will be the key to learning how to land.
If you're all over the place in the pattern, your landings will be brutal.
No big power reductions/additions, especially on final.
When your out in the practice area, play around with different configurations so you can see how the plane handles, and then when you get in the pattern you translate that into your approaches.
And use trim. It will make flying the plane so much more easier.
On final, when you've got the airplane configured and you're at your target airspeed, fly the plane down to the ground and look outside the airplane. I learned how to land by looking down the nose of the airplane, which helped keep the airplane straight and in an attitude that prevented me from flaring too high. I use this method today on the Beach 1800 that I fly.
 
Mandla,
The above post are correct, try transitioning your eyes further down the runway. To add some more points. Don't forgent that a good landing starts with a good approach. You need to make sure that you are where you need to be (alt/airspeed) all the way around the traffic pattern. The base leg is the most important, this is when you should be judging your height as to whether you are high or low. Once on final you should pitch for airspeed and power for alititude (lets not argue about this please!) to maintain your approach speed. Ok, now to the flare. Continue with the proper final pitch attitude and on your approach airspeed till about 10 feet above the runway, then slowely reduce power and TRANSITION your eyes to the end of the runway. This is where i tell my students that their main job is to not let the wheels touchdown, try to play a little game of holding the aircraft off the runway as long as possible (of course you wont be able to, but it makes a smooth touchdown). Remember, your attitude should be the same attitude that you see when you stall. Another, thing that may help you is going up and practicing slow flight. This will get you used to control the aircraft at slow speeds. Doing slow flight until you can hold plus or minus a couple feet might help.

Common mistake that i see:
1. Getting to slow and low: meaning that students tend to think they are getting low so they pitch back and this causes them to get slow, and now we are below approach speed and end up lossing lift to high and drop the plane in hard. Remember if this is happening you need to make sure that you adjust both power and pitch to maintain the desired approach speed until about 10 feet for a proper transition
 
I fly a C150...grrrreat piece of equipment. What usually happens is I fly a reasonable pattern around the airfield, and just when i think I'm almost there, something goes wrong on the landing (either im too high and flare too soon or im too low and BANG!..I've done it again) Even though my istructor tells me "You flew a good pattern", and tries to re-enforce what I've done well...it's the landing I can't help thinking about. I'm booked for tomorrow afternoon and i hope to apply some of the tips you've given me. Maybe I worry too much. How long did it take you all to Solo?
 
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I flew with Grabo a few weeks ago and it is sickening. He flares and holds it off about an inch above the runway. I figure, you have landing gear made to absorb a shock...use them. Whats three feet falling out of the air between friends anyways...
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Thanks for the compliment!
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It's all been said above, the only other tip I can give, is...

It's not how much you flare, but the RATE at which you flare. That's where the finesse comes into play. Too fast, and you baloon. Too slow and, WHAM, you do a carrier landing.

You should try to level it off in ground effect, first. Then as the airplane slows, raise the nose to the landing attitude (watch the rate) and hold it there. As the plane continues to slow, you'll need more back pressure to hold the nose there... then eventually it'll touch.

Keep at it, you'll get it!
 
I totally understand where your coming from. I am still working on my PPL and to be totally honest there were times when I was supprized the nose wheel didn't punch throught the floor!

It will get better!
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Listen to your instructor.

You're doing most of it right. You're having a little problem with the last little bit, and from what it sounds like, it's just that finesse thing.

Yank the yoke back too hard, and you'll balloon. Don't pull back enough, and you'll prang it down hard.

It takes time to figure out what the right balance is, and you've got to stop being so hard on yourself.

Relax, have fun with it, and see what happens.
 
I remember when I was training for my instrument rating a few years ago, I went through a time where for some reason I started flaring high. I had to make a concentrated effort to hold off until it looked as if I were going to touch down. I still have to pay attention to it and I have 240 hrs. Still haven't figured out why.
 
The other thing to remember is...the cessna is a very strong airplane. It is made as a trainer and you will have to plop it pretty hard to break it so relax like Tony says and enjoy what you are doing. You will learn a lot more that way.

Just think of every hard landing as a reason you shouldn't leaseback an airplane that you own...
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The one thing that helped me the most was getting my speed under control. Before, I was having trouble, either floating a mile, or it felt like i dropped it down from 10 feet. Get the speed under control, and out of the blue, your landings will come to you. One of the things my instructor hammered into me was on final, only focus on 2 things: Airspeed and centerline, screw the rest of the panel. Quick glances at the speed, then I keep my head out and make a point not to look at the rest of the panel much. As others have said, look out over the cowling, and use peripherial vision to judge your height off the ground, then just hold it level a few feet off the deck until it settles down.
Hope this helped somewhat
 
Actually, and maybe I'm doing this wrong here, but I try to get the airspeed nailed on final, and as I cross the threshold, I stop looking at the panel.

I'm looking outside the windshield at that point. My only indication of my airspeed is when I hear that stall warning horn go off, which hopefully is followed a few seconds later by the little squeak as the mains touch down.

Although sometimes it's more like a bang. Sometimes on purpose, like when I landed at this field, on runway 32.

Clearview Airport

And sometimes not.
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But the airplane is always still usable so it's all good.
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Edited to add: my bad, Dave. Sounds like you're saying exactly the same thing as me.
 
When you reach the threshold add some nose up trim ( do two qwuick turns). This will help you out if you aren't pulling back that extra little bit before your touchdown. Watchout though cause if you are the type to float down the runway this wil either fix your problem or make it even worse.
 
THIS SUCKS! I had just completed my run-up checks and my instructor was just as eager to get me in the airport pattern for some touch and goes before the weather deteriorated as it was forecast to. Just as I requested for the depature clearance tower informed us that they had to shut down the pattern due to a rapid deterioration in the visibility. I was so looking forwad to going up again and seeing where I've been going wrong with the landings but well...thats one of the great disapointments in aviation. I'm going up on Saturday though. SO...IF I AM GETTING THIS RIGHT, THE IDEA IS TO FOLLOW THROUGH THE CONTROLS AS THE AIRPLANE DECENDS BECAUSE WHAT I'VE BEEN DOING IS PULLING BACK ON THE CONTROLS WHICH OBVIOUSLY HASN'T HELPED MUCH...
 
You're going to have to pull back on the yoke sooner or later, but the trick is to do it with finesse.

Also, there's been some very good advice of separating things a bit. First you put it into level flight, and once that has been established, you start to pull back more. Do it GENTLY and try to hold that airplane off the ground as long as you can.
 
I always had a problem of flaring too high, which bleeds off the energy and then BAM. You're on the ground, but it's more like getting shot down than landing.

The trick is to control your airspeed on the approach, if you've got that nailed, then you're about 80% there. If you come in too fast, you're gonna float for days, if you come in too slow, assume the crash position. Does the 150 have 30 or 40 degrees for flaps? If 40, try just using 30. I used to use 40 on the 172N, and I hardly every do that anymore unless I need down NOW. If you've got good airspeed control and a good descent rate, it's conceivable to only use 10 or 20 degrees of flaps. You might float more that way, so know your runway length.

Ditto what everyone else said about looking down the runway. Use your peripheral vision as well to get a feel for how high you are. Like Tony said, the trick in the flare (which was the hardest thing for me personally to learn) is the finesse of pulling the nose up. Too much, too fast, and you're gonna come right back up again and bleed off your energy and airspeed. Not enough or too slow, and you get the nose wheel through the floor (thanks, Lindsey. I like that one). The trick is to pull it back and a slow, consistant rate and let the airplane sink to the runway. One way to do get the feel of this is to do a sort of soft field landing/low approach method. Come down like normal, but kick in a little power during ground effect. Then play a game where you try to keep the wheels off the ground, but don't climb. Once you get that, do it without adding power.
 
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