RNAV missed approach

[This is My Screen Name]

0.3 RNP or 1.0 RNP ? and why or why not?

green needles approach, white needles for the missed but the missed instructions are a heading, anything change with RNP ?

background - a few AQP sesssions ago, did a single engine missed - perfectly executed except for when I called for white needles and NAV mode, even though I followed the instructions on the plate. Didn't want to argue with Sim Instructor, wasn't worth it end of the day.

just one of those things that stick with you and make you wonder and there isn't any room to tell some Sim Instructors that there is a possibility of doing a way different then theirs...

 

[Stone Cold]

How do you do a green needles approach with an RNAV? Green usually means you’re VOR, or even NDB, right? Blue (or white, I guess) is NAV or RNAV. On an RNAV, why would you change from NAV to NAV? How do you make that change, even?

Am I missing something?

 

[B767]

How do you do a green needles approach with an RNAV? Green usually means you’re VOR, or even NDB, right? Blue (or white, I guess) is NAV or RNAV. On an RNAV, why would you change from NAV to NAV? How do you make that change, even?

Am I missing something?

Glad I’m not the only one that read the question and was more concerned about shooting an RNAV in green vs white needles.

So if you’re shooting a VOR approach, which is conventional, when you switch back to NAV wouldn’t it still be in TERMinal (which is 1.0 I think)?

 

[bp]

From what I understand you were doing a localizer based approach, and then switched to fms for the missed and entered an lnav mode when it called for a simple heading? Unless your fms can fly a heading command idk why you'd do that

 

[BE19Pilot]

Could it be that we're misunderstanding that it was a missed off an ILS? Pretty much EVERY ILS missed approach starts with a heading...But, you fly to a fix via an LNAV path once you're established on the heading...At least that's the way we teach it...VOR/NDB approaches use LNAV ( for reference only ) and require some form of "raw data" be tuned, identified and displayed ( typically an RMI or a bearing pointer on PFD ). There are ways of mixing green needles with a VNAV path, but that's a whole other topic...( and we don't train those )

 

[This is My Screen Name]

How do you do a green needles approach with an RNAV? Green usually means you’re VOR, or even NDB, right? Blue (or white, I guess) is NAV or RNAV. On an RNAV, why would you change from NAV to NAV? How do you make that change, even?

Am I missing something?

Two separate questions - first question started with the thread title, guess I could have repeated the thread title into the first question for clarity...

1. RNAV missed approach 0.3 RNP or 1.0 RNP ? and why or why not?
2. green needles approach, white needles for the missed but the missed instructions are a heading, anything change with RNP ?

I reckon I could pick out a specific approach but I couldn't remember the exact scenario from the Sim Ride almost two years ago. Maybe a little more clarity is in order(best of memory...)

• "Go around, set thrust, flaps 8" positive rate "gear up speed mode bug Vt" 1000 feet, switch to white needles "flaps up after take off checks NAV mode"

What the Sim instructor wanted

• "Go around, set thrust, flaps 8" switch to white needles, positive rate "gear up speed mode bug Vt" 1000 feet "flaps up after take off checks NAV mode"

Instructor's nit pick was since I wasn't in NAV mode until 1000' then I was off course.

 

[This is My Screen Name]

Could it be that we're misunderstanding that it was a missed off an ILS? Pretty much EVERY ILS missed approach starts with a heading...But, you fly to a fix via an LNAV path once you're established on the heading...At least that's the way we teach it...VOR/NDB approaches use LNAV ( for reference only ) and require some form of "raw data" be tuned, identified and displayed ( typically an RMI or a bearing pointer on PFD ). There are ways of mixing green needles with a VNAV path, but that's a whole other topic...( and we don't train those )

Yea something like that (for one of the missed), trying to remember from a while back, I wish I could remember what airport we were at so I could pull up the plate

 

[This is My Screen Name]

Glad I’m not the only one that read the question and was more concerned about shooting an RNAV in green vs white needles.

So if you’re shooting a VOR approach, which is conventional, when you switch back to NAV wouldn’t it still be in TERMinal (which is 1.0 I think)?

That's my thinking also but the missed is on an approach chart and I don't have the TERPS memorized yet

 

[BE19Pilot]

Typically the Missed approach segment is RNP 1.0, but not always...Like everything there are exceptions...I am not a guru on Performance Based Navigation, but ILS approaches always go to a Heading on a missed approach, because it's NOT a PBN approach like an LNAV/VNAV or LPV for example...I'd have to look at the plate...but, off an ILS you'd typically call for "Heading/Nav" as appropriate AFTER switching NAV source to FMS mode...So, I'd say that your sim instructor was correct...I also recall that you mentioned that this was off an OEI approach?

 

[Stone Cold]

Two separate questions - first question started with the thread title, guess I could have repeated the thread title into the first question for clarity...

1. RNAV missed approach 0.3 RNP or 1.0 RNP ? and why or why not?
2. green needles approach, white needles for the missed but the missed instructions are a heading, anything change with RNP ?

I reckon I could pick out a specific approach but I couldn't remember the exact scenario from the Sim Ride almost two years ago. Maybe a little more clarity is in order(best of memory...)

• "Go around, set thrust, flaps 8" positive rate "gear up speed mode bug Vt" 1000 feet, switch to white needles "flaps up after take off checks NAV mode"

What the Sim instructor wanted

• "Go around, set thrust, flaps 8" switch to white needles, positive rate "gear up speed mode bug Vt" 1000 feet "flaps up after take off checks NAV mode"

Instructor's nit pick was since I wasn't in NAV mode until 1000' then I was off course.

What does your SOP say? What are your standard callouts? That would answer a ton for the second question. Where I am, NAV is after positive rate, gear up, etc. But it’s dependent on your specific SOP.

As for the first, I honestly don’t remember, but I think the missed is 1.0. I could be wrong, though.

And yeah, your question confused the heck out of me, but I r dum pilet!

 

[BE19Pilot]

That's my thinking also but the missed is on an approach chart and I don't have the TERPS memorized yet

You're correct...TERM is 1.0 and APP is .3...BUT there are exceptions! Gotta look at the plate to dig those out! Typically the "exceptions" are more of an Other countries issue...They don't have the same SBAS systems ( WAAS in the USA and EGNOS in the Europe for example...). Just remember, off ANY green needles approach, it's going to START with a heading...Then switch NAV source to FMS and then you can go to LNAV and she should fly to the Missed approach fix while you finish your coffee...

 

[This is My Screen Name]

Going to digest all that and look up the SOP, thanks all for helping me improve my game

 

[BE19Pilot]

https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/where_we_are_now/nextgen_update/progress_and_plans/pbn/

This is something that will likely lead to a coma...BUT, it's good information to look over while sitting in the hotel...Like I said, I'm not a guru, but I teach a jet with PBN capability and it pretty much causes the same amount of confusion you're ( and I too ! ) sometimes experience...It was a lot easier when there were like SIX approaches and THATS IT!

 

[Stone Cold]

Going to digest all that and look up the SOP, thanks all for helping me improve my game

Yeah, if you don’t have your SOP and callouts down by now, after at least 2 years with your company, I’d hit the books hard, if I were you.

 

[This is My Screen Name]

Ok, took quick look at company SOP.

First of all I paraphrased the Go Around callouts significantly, just to illustrate when I switched to white needles vs when the instructor wanted me to.

So in that regards, the only things in the SOP is to not ask for heading or nav until above 400' AGL - that could be a whole 'nother back and forth there I guess - above 400 to some people means you HAVE to do it at 401' AGL - as I remember the session a little better now... I did everything very smoothly, calmly, though not "on time" as I didn't ask for NAV until 1000' AGL, per the instructor I was just "wandering aimlessly" from 400 to 1000 feet (though I was following the heading on the chart)

Like I said just curious what RNP is expected on a go around for all kinds of approaches just to be a better pilot, not trying to win an argument with an instructor.

Definitely nothing wrong with doing it the way the instructor said to. Only reason I didn't was I had my hands full keeping the brick centered on an OEI missed approach and switching hands on the yoke so that I could reach down and switch to white needles caused me to be unstable when I did it his way.

 

[Roger Roger]

What EFIS/FMS? I’m flying my first aircraft with a minimal FMS and trying to correlate the Honeywell way with other stuff that’s out there.

 

[This is My Screen Name]

Yeah, if you don’t have your SOP and callouts down by now, after at least 2 years with your company, I’d hit the books hard, if I were you.

That was unnecessary.

I was pretty sure SOP doesn't say anything about when to switch to white needles and when I double checked, it doesn't. I have all the required calls and procedures down thanks.

This is about technique and trying to understand more about what may or may not be a better way.

 

[Stone Cold]

Ok, took quick look at company SOP.

First of all I paraphrased the Go Around callouts significantly, just to illustrate when I switched to white needles vs when the instructor wanted me to.

So in that regards, the only things in the SOP is to not ask for heading or nav until above 400' AGL - that could be a whole 'nother back and forth there I guess - above 400 to some people means you HAVE to do it at 401' AGL - as I remember the session a little better now... I did everything very smoothly, calmly, though not "on time" as I didn't ask for NAV until 1000' AGL, per the instructor I was just "wandering aimlessly" from 400 to 1000 feet (though I was following the heading on the chart)

Like I said just curious what RNP is expected on a go around for all kinds of approaches just to be a better pilot, not trying to win an argument with an instructor.

Definitely nothing wrong with doing it the way the instructor said to. Only reason I didn't was I had my hands full keeping the brick centered on an OEI missed approach and switching hands on the yoke so that I could reach down and switch to white needles caused me to be unstable when I did it his way.

Are you at a single pilot operation?

 

[This is My Screen Name]

What EFIS/FMS? I’m flying my first aircraft with a minimal FMS and trying to correlate the Honeywell way with other stuff that’s out there.

Rockwell Collins 4200

 

[Stone Cold]

That was unnecessary.

I was pretty sure SOP doesn't say anything about when to switch to white needles and when I double checked, it doesn't. I have all the required calls and procedures down thanks.

This is about technique and trying to understand more about what may or may not be a better way.

I honestly meant no disrespect in that reply. The fact you had to look to see company guidance says a lot. I understand things go missing in between training events, but if I posted a question calling out an instructor, I’d make sure I knew my job as far as SOP and callouts.

I really do mean no disrespect, but this is our job, to operate the machinery like our bosses say to.

Also, SOP is not technique. We have specific callouts for all your questions in this thread. Your SOP apparently is different.