RNAV Departure Phraseology

He may mean he hits nav and it goes to hdg automaticaly until the correct alt is reached. Or hes trying to pull the "it says hdg so im doing hdg mode until i reach thr altitude because i dont trust no damn automation. turn off my FD too, im trying out for NASA next week and i wanna be sharp!"

im just guessing.
 
Well that's the thing, it's uniform in the sense that it's codified in ATC's national order. Individual facilities need to adhere to the standard and pilot material should be updated to reflect such. When this happens, perhaps a safety event report could be made, or a call to the facility afterwards?

Flying counter to your clearance can always be bad, but on simultaneous parallel RNAV departures it can get exceptionally ugly in mere seconds.
 
I'm just wondering how you can select two lateral modes at the same time, and if you can, how does the airplane decide which data to take? Does it flip a coin? Maybe it bets on the hard ways and you hope that the FMS has a good roll?
Apparently systems vary. With the system I use, you are able to select both; one will be active while one is armed. With both HDG and NAV selected, the system remains in HDG mode until 400' AGL then switches automatically to NAV. The NAV mode can not be active below 400' regardless of illumination of the button. The airplane "decides" to select HDG based on altitude. [my money says that your system is the same - try it sometime and see]

This "technique" will give me a solid FD to follow in an engine failure situation coming off the runway and allow me to follow the DP utilizing NAV without having to reach up and make the switch. The only situation I would need to make the switch after takeoff is if I have an engine failure. In this case, I'll de-arm NAV and remain in HDG.

Of course this is DP dependant. Some DPs require a heading until receiving a vector, some are HDG to certain altitude,etc.....(too many to name here but you get the idea).

I understand it's a "technique" but the FD on takeoff with a failed engine might save my bacon.......
 
Actually we select nav when the gear comes up, and it'll cycle to lnav and capture right away. We could takeoff in lnav as a lateral mode, but don't for a handful of reasons, but the plane would do it.

An ils, on the other hand, works the way you're describing. Stay in hdg with apr armed and when the loc and gs come in, it'll switch modes and capture.


What are you flying? I'm dealing with an emb 145.
 
Actually we select nav when the gear comes up, and it'll cycle to lnav and capture right away. We could takeoff in lnav as a lateral mode, but don't for a handful of reasons, but the plane would do it......
I think our systems work the same, but why worry about reaching up to make the switch? Activate HDG, arm NAV and let the system keep you on runway heading to 400' and make the switch for you?

.....An ils, on the other hand, works the way you're describing. Stay in hdg with apr armed and when the loc and gs come in, it'll switch modes and capture.

What are you flying? I'm dealing with an emb 145.
It will do the same on take off in order to follow the DP. I'm not stating that EVERY airplane will do this, I'm stating that today's airplanes with FMS and an EFIS-type display will do this. Next time you takeoff (VMC), try it.......I think you'll like the way the system works.
 
I think our systems work the same, but why worry about reaching up to make the switch? Activate HDG, arm NAV and let the system keep you on runway heading to 400' and make the switch for you?

For a few reasons, and these are just screwy issues with a poorly designed autopilot and FMS.

First, we could do what you're saying, but as soon as you're on the runway and the HSI needle centers up, it'll capture the nav track. The autopilot/FMS doesn't know what altitude your at, or maybe I should say, it doesn't care what altitude you're at. As soon as that needle comes within maybe a dot of being centered, it'll capture and try to fly you to it.

Second, we COULD just take off in nav, and in fact it's been discussed. The problem with this plane is that if you select nav at the gate, and if you THEN taxi close enough to another fix, it'll cycle to the next waypoint. A good example of this would probably be in Newark, where we park at the A gates, and then taxi down to the 22's for departure. We're so close to the end of runway 22, that the FMS may will cycle onto the next waypoint on the departure, thinking that we've gotten close enough to it.

It's frustrating, to tell you the truth. As "modern" as this airplane is when it comes to systems, it has a toy autopilot/FMS combo, and forces us to setup a lot of the automation manually, if that makes sense. Our first solution was to do LNAV at 400' manually, but that was kind of a mess of button pressing with how our after takeoff flows work. Now we're doing LNAV when the gear comes up, and it'll likely work in most engine out situations because we're going to end up flying to a heading almost right away, so in the rare event of an engine failure, we'll just punch up HDG and dial in whatever we need for the engine failure path.

And don't get me wrong, what you're saying sounds like a superior way of doing things, we've just got some systems limitations that prevent us from doing it.
 
For a few reasons, and these are just screwy issues with a poorly designed autopilot and FMS...............

..............It's frustrating, to tell you the truth. As "modern" as this airplane is when it comes to systems, it has a toy autopilot/FMS combo, and forces us to setup a lot of the automation manually, if that makes sense. Our first solution was to do LNAV at 400' manually, but that was kind of a mess of button pressing with how our after takeoff flows work. Now we're doing LNAV when the gear comes up, and it'll likely work in most engine out situations because we're going to end up flying to a heading almost right away, so in the rare event of an engine failure, we'll just punch up HDG and dial in whatever we need for the engine failure path.

And don't get me wrong, what you're saying sounds like a superior way of doing things, we've just got some systems limitations that prevent us from doing it.
That makes sense too! Weird the differences in these systems. Now that I think about it, I guess I could take off in NAV mode and just hit the Go-Around should I have an engine failure (probably an easier method anyway).

I'm going to try what you're stating here and see how it goes........
 
That makes sense too! Weird the differences in these systems. Now that I think about it, I guess I could take off in NAV mode and just hit the Go-Around should I have an engine failure (probably an easier method anyway).

I'm going to try what you're stating here and see how it goes........

What aircraft are you flying? And what avionics suite do you have?
 
There are a few issues.
Sixth, we screw this up ALL THE TIME. The reason we want the verification is because it's REALLY easy to screw up programming the box. And runway or departure changes? That makes it even worse. I've had four runway changes while taxing out in ATL, which required a full reprogramming of the FMS. That's four times that I can screw up programming the box, and it's four chances to turn the wrong direction after departure.

I don't work at the tower, but I'm curious to hear the story about why you had four runway changes especially given that ATL rarely goes to trip departures. Did your company assign you the wrong route or push you back in the wrong direction off the gate or something? On a somewhat related note... I had to sign a form a few months ago because an aircraft deviated two degrees off the departure (so 7 degrees instead of 9). Yes, TWO degrees with no "confliction," but thanks to the "snitch," I had to sign a sheet about it.
 
... I had to sign a form a few months ago because an aircraft deviated two degrees off the departure (so 7 degrees instead of 9). Yes, TWO degrees with no "confliction," but thanks to the "snitch," I had to sign a sheet about it.

You got snitched with aircraft on the RNAV?Systems error, no?
 
I don't work at the tower, but I'm curious to hear the story about why you had four runway changes especially given that ATL rarely goes to trip departures. Did your company assign you the wrong route or push you back in the wrong direction off the gate or something? On a somewhat related note... I had to sign a form a few months ago because an aircraft deviated two degrees off the departure (so 7 degrees instead of 9). Yes, TWO degrees with no "confliction," but thanks to the "snitch," I had to sign a sheet about it.

It's not a story, it's a way of life. I've never gone to ATL and NOT gotten a runway change. I go as far as calling clearance to check to see what runway we're going to get, and invariably, it'll be changed at least once. This last time they sent us north up the alley, only to have us come back the other way so we could go south, and didn't just change runways, they changed departures twice.

Maybe I've got bad luck, but this happens to me all the time in ATL.
 
You got snitched with aircraft on the RNAV?Systems error, no?
Yeah, it was initially picked up as a pilot deviation, but the QA guys refiled it as a systems error. All I said was "radar contact." Neither I nor the pilot even noticed I'm guessing. If I remember though, I think it was an E145.
 
It's not a story, it's a way of life. I've never gone to ATL and NOT gotten a runway change. I go as far as calling clearance to check to see what runway we're going to get, and invariably, it'll be changed at least once. This last time they sent us north up the alley, only to have us come back the other way so we could go south, and didn't just change runways, they changed departures twice.

Maybe I've got bad luck, but this happens to me all the time in ATL.
That sucks man. The tower calls the departure split so who knows what is going on with the multiple runway changes and or the change in departures. It just seems crazy that it sounds like a common occurrence.
 
It's not a story, it's a way of life. I've never gone to ATL and NOT gotten a runway change. I go as far as calling clearance to check to see what runway we're going to get, and invariably, it'll be changed at least once. This last time they sent us north up the alley, only to have us come back the other way so we could go south, and didn't just change runways, they changed departures twice.

Maybe I've got bad luck, but this happens to me all the time in ATL.
Funny, that's how I feel about ORD. Always playing "guess the runway". Both arriving and departing. Reason # 45 I avoid that place.

Almost never have a problem with ATL.
 
It's not a story, it's a way of life. I've never gone to ATL and NOT gotten a runway change. I go as far as calling clearance to check to see what runway we're going to get, and invariably, it'll be changed at least once. This last time they sent us north up the alley, only to have us come back the other way so we could go south, and didn't just change runways, they changed departures twice.

Maybe I've got bad luck, but this happens to me all the time in ATL.
I want to thank you for your bad luck, the law of big numbers has worked my way every time as a result. No runway changes in ATL ever, not in the Saab, 900 or 200. (trying to remember if I even went there in the 900).
 
Holy crap! I just saw the new (effective 3 Apr) changes/phraseology for RNAV departures. "Top altitude" is an interesting concept; especially when the published altitudes may conflict with the cleared altitudes.

How do these issues get past the pilot group(s) that help approve these?
 
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