RNAV Departure Phraseology

jtrain609

Antisocial Monster
Hey ya'll,


I have a quick question regarding RNAV departure phraseology. Specifically, are tower controllers required to state that you are cleared for takeoff, RNAV to WHATEVERFIX when you're doing an RNAV departure? Our book says that this phraseology should always be used for RNAV departures, but then I found this, which alludes to the phraseology only applying when there are simultaneous parallel departures in use:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N7110.595.pdf

Does this apply ONLY when there are simultaneous parallel departures? Or should this phraseology ALWAYS be used? Our operations manual says that it should always be used no matter what the runway configuration is, but I get the impression that controllers have different guidance on the issue.
 
It's for simultaneous parallel departures. I believe this was rolled out initially at DFW and ATL to test out the phraseology. Now it's in our manual:

7110.65U

5−8−2. INITIAL HEADING


b. When conducting simultaneous parallel runway
departures utilizing RNAV SIDs, advise aircraft
of the initial fix/waypoint on the RNAV route.

PHRASEOLOGY−
RNAV to (fix/waypoint), RUNWAY (number), CLEARED
FOR TAKEOFF.

EXAMPLE−
“RNAV to MPASS, Runway Two−Six Left, cleared for
takeoff.”
NOTE−

1. TERMINAL. A purpose for an initial waypoint advisory
is not necessary since pilots associate this advisory with the
flight path to their planned route of flight. Pilots must
immediately advise ATC if a different RNAV SID is entered
in the aircraft FMS.

2. The SID transition is not restated as it is contained in the
ATC clearance.

As far as I know, there is no further guidance on using that phraseology for all RNAV departures.
 
I'm not a tower guy, but we have RNAV DPs. Just knowing how they are structured, it COULD make sense that if only one runway is in use for departures, so long as you know the appropriate RNAV DP, it shouldn't be an issue. As far as tower is concerned, they're giving standard departure separation. Beyond that, they all merge depending on direction, so as a TRACON guy, I couldn't care less. The actual fixes are so close that in a single runway departure configuration it wouldn't really matter.

I'm just a RADAR guy though so I know nothing about it. Every time I hit Local on the land line I hear them issue RNAV direct ABC cleared whatever runway FWIW. Either that or line up and wait. Line up and wait just sounds wrong.
 
So here's the problem, and this is why I asked for clarification. At this airport, I've commonly been issued an RNAV departure in the PDC, only to be given something else at the runway. So between company guidance and past experience, you can imagine I didn't know what they wanted me to do and wanted some clarification,

Thanks!
 
Dallas used to do crap like that, then they'd scream at poor air whiskey on the radio for flying the wrong direction. I started calling out the first fix, like ATL does, SLC or DFW be damned.
 
Dallas used to do crap like that, then they'd scream at poor air whiskey on the radio for flying the wrong direction. I started calling out the first fix, like ATL does, SLC or DFW be damned.

Exactly. It seems like such a simple solution to a problem that can cause a major headache, so I don't understand why it's not used all the time. Sure enough, somebody in tech pubs thinks it IS used all the time.
 
If this helps... We will issue a heading if the RNAV conflicts with a departing aircraft inside your turn. Often tower doesn't know until after you've received the initial clearance on the PDC. My tower is supposed give a heading if an inside turning prop in 6 miles or closer. Sometimes they will continue to do so for another mile or so not knowing how fast the jet will depart or if the prop will level and gain speed.

Personally I'm not a fan of RNAV SIDs.
 
If this helps... We will issue a heading if the RNAV conflicts with a departing aircraft inside your turn. Often tower doesn't know until after you've received the initial clearance on the PDC. My tower is supposed give a heading if an inside turning prop in 6 miles or closer. Sometimes they will continue to do so for another mile or so not knowing how fast the jet will depart or if the prop will level and gain speed.

Personally I'm not a fan of RNAV SIDs.

I'm a fan of the theory, but there's not much in the way of standardization yet, and that's also on our end. It's one of our most common screw ups, just pressing the proper buttons.
 
I'm a fan of the theory, but there's not much in the way of standardization yet, and that's also on our end. It's one of our most common screw ups, just pressing the proper buttons.
Standardization needs cleaning up in my opinion. I love the rnavs just hate everyone doing it differently across the country.
 
The manual seems pretty clear. What are other places doing?

There are a few issues.

First, my book isn't in line with yours, and states that the phraseology should always be used.

Second, the majority of our RNAV departures are from large airports with parallel ops, so we always hear the RNAV phraseology with our takeoff clearance.

Third, when I don't hear that, it makes me think I missed something, and that I'm about to takeoff and make a turn when the tower controller may not be expecting it.

Fourth, this is why my book says to refuse any takeoff clearance that has an RNAV departure if it doesn't include "RNAV to WHATEVERFIX." It's better to make things clear than to botch the departure.

Fifth, even with non parallel ops, some controllers still use the RNAV phraseology, which means we likely hear it nearly all the time.

Sixth, we screw this up ALL THE TIME. The reason we want the verification is because it's REALLY easy to screw up programming the box. And runway or departure changes? That makes it even worse. I've had four runway changes while taxing out in ATL, which required a full reprogramming of the FMS. That's four times that I can screw up programming the box, and it's four chances to turn the wrong direction after departure.
 
There are a few issues.

First, my book isn't in line with yours, and states that the phraseology should always be used.

Second, the majority of our RNAV departures are from large airports with parallel ops, so we always hear the RNAV phraseology with our takeoff clearance.

Third, when I don't hear that, it makes me think I missed something, and that I'm about to takeoff and make a turn when the tower controller may not be expecting it.

Fourth, this is why my book says to refuse any takeoff clearance that has an RNAV departure if it doesn't include "RNAV to WHATEVERFIX." It's better to make things clear than to botch the departure.

Fifth, even with non parallel ops, some controllers still use the RNAV phraseology, which means we likely hear it nearly all the time.

Sixth, we screw this up ALL THE TIME. The reason we want the verification is because it's REALLY easy to screw up programming the box. And runway or departure changes? That makes it even worse. I've had four runway changes while taxing out in ATL, which required a full reprogramming of the FMS. That's four times that I can screw up programming the box, and it's four chances to turn the wrong direction after departure.
Agreed. This real Bitch of this is what was stated earlier. The tower (DFW in this situation) issues a different DP (or initial point) as they give take off clearance. Now all the reprogramming you've mentioned has to occur on the runway, in the take off position......this makes for rushed actions and opens the door wide open for mistakes (esp when single pilot).

There has got to be a better way.....
 
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The manual seems pretty clear. What are other places doing?
For one, SLC doesn't say the first fix... as do others. LGA, if I remember right, doesn't tell you the first fix or the climb your using once RNAV... terribly convenient. Somehow it convinced the CA he had to be in HDG mode so I had to talk him through the departure until he just finally listened to me and put the damn thing in NAV. Anyway, I like ATL's method.
 
There was some discussion (confusion) on this when the RNAV SID's started. The takeoff clearance is "UPS123, RNAV to (sid fix), runway xx, cleared for takeoff". The problem is guys were reading that as "cleared direct to (sid fix)", and going direct to that fix, rather than leaving the box alone and letting it do it's thing. Some of the procedures take you on runway heading for a while before turning you to towards the first named fix. You don't want to mess that up by changing the box and going direct (sid fix) after takeoff.
 
For one, SLC doesn't say the first fix... as do others. LGA, if I remember right, doesn't tell you the first fix or the climb your using once RNAV... terribly convenient. Somehow it convinced the CA he had to be in HDG mode so I had to talk him through the departure until he just finally listened to me and put the damn thing in NAV. Anyway, I like ATL's method.
I think you should take off with HDG selected. Depending on the DP, I'll usually have both HDG and NAV selected.
 
I'm just wondering how you can select two lateral modes at the same time, and if you can, how does the airplane decide which data to take? Does it flip a coin? Maybe it bets on the hard ways and you hope that the FMS has a good roll?
 
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