Rising costs and the future of flight training.

[flyguy]

Ah yes, and once again the blame goes to (drumroll please) the stupid, idiotic customers who take the offer of the cheaper fares. If we can just get rid of the customers.

Well he does have a point. The customers of course will want to pay the cheapest fare, but the customers are completely ignorant to the fact that their cheaper fare is the reason that they are no longer getting the amenities that they are used to. They either need to pay higher fares, or quit bitching about poor service. What really needs to happen however is airlines need to raise fares to a level where they are not paying to fly their customers to their destinations, and then market that they have better service than their competator, making it worth the extra cost. Then those that care about quality service will choose that airline, and those that care about getting to their destination as cheaply as possible will choose the no frills airline and hopefully (but probably not) not complain about their crappy service becasue they did have a choice.

 

[flyover]

Please tell me you're not advocating that we all 'roll over and take it like a champ'.

Not sure what that refers to. If you want things in the industry to improve then you have to hope that real problems get solved. "The customers are stupid and insist on paying too little for their tickets" is not a real problem.

You will see yields going up quite nicely this summer. While the industry has been holding capacity pretty steady and dealing with bankruptcies the US econcomy has been growing nicely and really picking up steam this year. So the airlines will be able to raise fares and make it stick. A growing econcomy is a real solution to a real problem. It drives demand up relative to supply and you get some pricing power back. Conversely, consumers are always going to shop for value. Thinking you can change that is not a real solution to a a real problem.

If you're talking about the "qualification" comments I'm just saying I've heard it for decades and it never washes. I used to buy it but don't any more. At every level pilots are better trained and more qualified than in the past. There's no comparison between now and the 60s and 70s. They are just a LOT better. I don't see that changing in the future, but it's just an opinion.

 

[desertdog71]

My point here is that, if you did not do your due dilligence before taking out the huge loan. I have no sympathy for you. I am doing the training myself. I chose to enter this field knowing what the earning realities are. I expect no sympathy from anybody.

As for the customers wanting cheap fares. Of course they do, and the Airlines have a choice also. Charge more at the risk of losing volumn or keeping the fares relatively low and having higher volumn. Its basic supply and demand economics at work.

The same principal applies to wages. If these carriers can get the job done, with decreased labor costs, why wouldn't they do it? At some point they will reach a point where the employees won't go along with things and have to make concessions.

People have to understand that its not their birthright to get paid simply because they are good at something. If equally qualified people are willing to do it for less, why should the carriers pay more?

When you have repairs done on your car, or home improvements done. Do you get estimates, have the job bid, and then go with the lowest price? I am sure most of you do. A very small percentage of people will pay more for better service. Most everyones buying decision is based on price.

This all being said, in no way does this suggest that you "Roll over and take it like a champ" or chump either. I am all for fighting to make things better for the workforce, but at the same time, realize that this same concept drives the prices up on everything. There is a point where the consumer will simply look elsewhere.

Look at the American Auto industry for example. You have to pay over $30,000 for an new car these days. The reason is largely because they employees feel it is there god given right to make $30 an hour, get 20 days off a year, medical benefits, retirement benefits, and the works. Then they complain that they have a crappy lifestyle and don't make enough money. This while putting out an inferior product. Then they blame the government and others, because people are buying import cars.

That all being said. You may resume your rants.

 

[PanJet]

Look at the American Auto industry for example. You have to pay over $30,000 for an new car these days. The reason is largely because they employees feel it is there god given right to make $30 an hour, get 20 days off a year, medical benefits, retirement benefits, and the works. Then they complain that they have a crappy lifestyle and don't make enough money. This while putting out an inferior product. Then they blame the government and others, because people are buying import cars.

Well put (although I don't believe American autos are inferior, but that's a different subject). Basically the American system is built on the idea that we deserve more for what we do and we deserve to pay less for what we want. It's a vicious circle. Ultimately it ends in an economic collapse of some kind.

The point is intelligence doesn't make a good person, or a good pilot for that matter....There's alot of people smarter(Intelligence-wise) than me, that couldn't ever even imagine flying a plane, and at the same time I know there's alot of people out there who aren't smarter(Intelligence-wise) than me who could put me to shame.(Not to say that that would be a great accomplishment to best a low hour pilot like myself)

I agree, but I do believe that the FAA wouldn't be out of line in requiring an aptitude test of some sort, kinda like the tests they require to even enter the ATC program.

I also agree with you on the point of leaving it up to the employers, as I stated before. The thing is, many jobs require professionalism, regardless of the level of intelligence it requires. Take for example being a bellhop at a ritzy hotel. It doesn't take a lot of intelligence, but if you're unprofessional, you won't last long or in the very least won't make any tips. It ultimately is up to the employers who they believe is professional enough for what they want.

 

[flyover]

Basically the American system is built on the idea that we deserve more for what we do and we deserve to pay less for what we want. It's a vicious circle. Ultimately it ends in an economic collapse of some ind.

This is an unusual take on our system. I can kind of see it I guess. The idea is that free markets allow suppliers and buyers to find an agreed on value. Whether it's labor, service or a product.

Collapses come when some outside force or forces interfere with that process. Things get out of whack until something is so far away from the free market price that it can't be artificially held there anymore. That is what happened with the collapse of the Soviet system.

There were many artificial forces at play in the airline industry. Primarily the industry was protected from competition and completely regulated for many years. Deregulation did not remove the many dynamic forces of that. It took almost 30 years for that to really happen. When the dust settles the industry may finally be ready for open competition.

 

[flyover]

As for the customers wanting cheap fares. Of course they do, and the Airlines have a choice also. Charge more at the risk of losing volumn or keeping the fares relatively low and having higher volumn. Its basic supply and demand economics at work.

It's a fine point but it's not that the consumers "demand" cheap fares. Consumers will deal with airfares the way they do with any other purchase. If fares get higher than they want to pay, they won't fly.

The issue is that airlines offer them cheap fares in order to increase their revenue. Airline seats are like selling bananas, you either sell them or you throw them in the dumpster behind the store. You only get one chance to sell each seat. So the cheap fares come from the airlines NOT THE CONSUMERS. That's why it seems to be missing the mark to blame the customers for cheap fares. Fares will go up naturally as capacity and demand move together.

 

[Killtron2000]

The question really is are these pilots dangerous? Thats the only thing the FAA should concern itself with. I know alot of guys would like to make a high experience requirment so there is less competition and better pay for 121 but that is not the FAA's problem. I know I could probably make alot more money in a diffrent line of work but I like flying. I think most people would take lower pay to do a job they like. I think most aspiring pilots these days have SJS and the FAA might have to do something if they prove to be dangerous. But at any rate it would be very foolish not to have a degree in something outside of aviation even if there was a shortage of pilots because you could always loose your medical.

 

[pilot602]

This seems to be a very subjective analysis that you are pushing as if it was fact. I can't help but think of the many captains I flew with who were hired with less than 1,000 hours of time. When I was hired in 1979 it was hard to find military pilots who had more than 1,000 hours. And through the decades the one thing that was standard ops was all the hand wringing about how "they just aren't hiring 'em as good as I am any more".

Prediction: Among the challenges facing the industry in the coming years won't be an influx of "unqualified" pilots. Although, as has been the case since they started requiring co-pilots, they won't be as "qualified" as the guys already there.

Fly ... no offense, but this is probably the first thing I've read of yours and went ... right on hell yeah.

 

[pilot602]

My point here is that, if you did not do your due dilligence before taking out the huge loan. I have no sympathy for you. I am doing the training myself. I chose to enter this field knowing what the earning realities are. I expect no sympathy from anybody.

Careful, because the second you come on here after doing 8 legs over a 16hour duty day on your first day off IOE and complain about pay or work rules or whatever is the instant these words will come back to haunt you. It's very easy to sit on the sidelines and say "I know what I'm getting myself into" when in all reality you really don't know what you're getting into till you get there.

As for the customers wanting cheap fares. Of course they do, and the Airlines have a choice also. Charge more at the risk of losing volume or keeping the fares relatively low and having higher volume. Its basic supply and demand economics at work.

If it's so basic A) why hasn't anyone figured out how to make money with an airline (aside from SW) and B) your example results in a wash. Both sides lead to the same end so it's obviously not that simple and "supply and demand" is influenced by so many other things than simple "supply and demand."

The same principal applies to wages. If these carriers can get the job done, with decreased labor costs, why wouldn't they do it? At some point they will reach a point where the employees won't go along with things and have to make concessions.

People have to understand that its not their birthright to get paid simply because they are good at something. If equally qualified people are willing to do it for less, why should the carriers pay more?

It's everyones right to get as much as they can for the work they do.

In fact, you seem to have done well for yourself if you can afford flight training out of pocket.

If you're so quick to blame others for making/demanding fair compensation for their work (and where is your outrage over the completely ridiculous wages of the management types?) why don't you hand over your "fortunes" to the government or the church or whatever? Make an example and give up that money you made.

Ah but you "worked hard" for your money. Tell me this how many times did you go to your boss and say "hey I make too much I want a pay cut!"

Thought so.

This all being said, in no way does this suggest that you "Roll over and take it like a champ" or chump either. I am all for fighting to make things better for the workforce, but at the same time, realize that this same concept drives the prices up on everything. There is a point where the consumer will simply look elsewhere.

So you'll take advantage of the work, sweat, blood and tears of the people who came before you and then have the gall to tell the very same people to STFU? Come on ...

Look at the American Auto industry for example. You have to pay over $30,000 for an new car these days. The reason is largely because they employees feel it is there god given right to make $30 an hour, get 20 days off a year, medical benefits, retirement benefits, and the works. Then they complain that they have a crappy lifestyle and don't make enough money. This while putting out an inferior product. Then they blame the government and others, because people are buying import cars.

The "average" car includes foreign cars and in fact most foreign cars are at the top end of the average. Besides when was the last time you were employed as a line worker? Because if you haven't worked an auto plant you really have no right to bitch about what someone else makes.

See this is the thing. If someone can get paid $30/hr and get 20 days off in the month, well more power to them. Who the hell are you to say one word about what someone else makes?

I mean I could sit here and make assumptions about your job and your pay and I'd probably succeed in p*ssing you off but because I've never worked your field I won't - except to say this. Federal law states that truck drivers get more rest in a 24 hour period than airline pilots and I don't care what anyone says it takes a little more corrdination, attention and skill to fly an aircraft than drive a truck. I'm not saying truck drivers should make less or get less rest I'm saying pilots should get more rest.

 

[desertdog71]

Looks like we have differing opinions. I am happy to hear your point of view though.

 

[flyover]

I know alot of guys would like to make a high experience requirment so there is less competition and better pay for 121

The only problem with this statement is: Qualifications never had one thing to do with high pay for airline pilots. It came about strictly and only because the industry was regulated and protected from competition and ALPA controlled the supply of pilots.

Whether lower pay will eventually lead to less qualified pilots will take quiet a while to figure out. Right now with pay and benfits going in the dumper the industry is awash in some of the best trained, best quality pilots it's ever had. And if this forum is any barometer, more on the way.

 

[flyover]

Fly ... no offense, but this is probably the first thing I've read of yours and went ... right on hell yeah.

You might have noticed I said pretty much the same thing about one of your posts the other day. We're getting there.

 

[B767Driver]

If you're talking about the "qualification" comments I'm just saying I've heard it for decades and it never washes. I used to buy it but don't any more. At every level pilots are better trained and more qualified than in the past. There's no comparison between now and the 60s and 70s. They are just a LOT better. I don't see that changing in the future, but it's just an opinion.

This was an article written by a Chief CFI in Lexington, KY that was re-printed in some major magazines...and a couple of flight school chief CFIs that I know that interview many CFIs straight out of school. While they may be streamlined trained for an RJ right seater job...the comments frequently are that they don't know much about any other aspect of aviation.

They may have some training on CRM and how to run checklists and fly an ILS with a flight director...but they couldn't tell you the difference between a side and forward slip and the reason to perform each one.

One reason low time military pilots worked is because they were so intensively screened. You knew when you hired a guy that he was able to be thrown into a situation and be successful. Those 1000 hours may consist of basic training in a high performance jet and then advanced training in an elite fighter or a transport with 4 engines. Having said that...that doesn't necessarily make them an ideal airline pilot. I know many military pilots who are not good flight crew leaders.

But back to the aptitude testing. I think you can train a good leader. It's more challenging to bring mediocre intelligence up to a higher level.

I should know. I've been trying to get smarter...doesn't seem to be working too good.

 

[derg]

On that note, anyone who thinks a 250 hour civilian pilot and a 250 hour military pilot are 'same same' needs a little sodium pentathol!

 

[desertdog71]

Careful, because the second you come on here after doing 8 legs over a 16hour duty day on your first day off IOE and complain about pay or work rules or whatever is the instant these words will come back to haunt you. It's very easy to sit on the sidelines and say "I know what I'm getting myself into" when in all reality you really don't know what you're getting into till you get there.

Now that its not 1 am when I am reading this, I will address your statements. You are absolutely correct that I do not know exactly the scope of what I am getting into. However my statement on this part of our disagreement stands. If you take out a huge loan to pay for your training, knowing full well that the wages suck for the first 3-4 years in the industry, then I have no sympathy for you. Here is a novel idea, try working to pay for what you want and stop borrowing for everything. One of the basic principals of life and economics is: The borrower is slave to the lender. So if you want to be a struggling, working for the man individual, by all means borrow $60,000 and go to one of the big academies and slide into that $19,000 a year job. Then complain that you don't have any money and life sucks.

If it's so basic A) why hasn't anyone figured out how to make money with an airline (aside from SW) and B) your example results in a wash. Both sides lead to the same end so it's obviously not that simple and "supply and demand" is influenced by so many other things than simple "supply and demand."

If Carrier A flies from x to y for cheaper than Carrier B. Who will get the bulk of the business? The consumer drives the price of the market in all things. If the consumer feels that something is over-priced they will make other arrangements. Its pretty simple. Southwest does well because they manage their costs more effectively than the other carriers.

It's everyones right to get as much as they can for the work they do.

In fact, you seem to have done well for yourself if you can afford flight training out of pocket.

If you're so quick to blame others for making/demanding fair compensation for their work (and where is your outrage over the completely ridiculous wages of the management types?) why don't you hand over your "fortunes" to the government or the church or whatever? Make an example and give up that money you made.

Ah but you "worked hard" for your money. Tell me this how many times did you go to your boss and say "hey I make too much I want a pay cut!"

Thought so.

You are simply putting words in my mouth now. I made it clear before that I am all for trying to make more money and better QOL. I only pointed out the fact that you don't always get what you want. As for my fortunes, I worked, never borrowed money, and saved. I realize that it is a very novel concept to do things that way, but I like how it has turned out so far.

So you'll take advantage of the work, sweat, blood and tears of the people who came before you and then have the gall to tell the very same people to STFU? Come on ...

Once again, you have put words in my mouth. The subject of this thread has to do with training costs. My comments were directed towards BORROWING MONEY TO PAY FOR TRAINING.

Again read my post, I specifically said, I do not support rolling over and taking it like a chump.

The "average" car includes foreign cars and in fact most foreign cars are at the top end of the average. Besides when was the last time you were employed as a line worker? Because if you haven't worked an auto plant you really have no right to bitch about what someone else makes.

See this is the thing. If someone can get paid $30/hr and get 20 days off in the month, well more power to them. Who the hell are you to say one word about what someone else makes?

Keep letting the jobs go overseas, then blame the company for trying to make a profit. This world doesn't owe you a damn thing. Yet people will complain their asses off and blame everybody aside from themselves when they lose their jobs.
Do you mean to tell me that if you were a business owner, you would pay more than your company could handle for labor? Of course you wouldn't. At the same time if the company you work for is sticking it to you, and you aren't getting satisfaction you have the option to leave. OH, but wait you fought so hard for that seniority. You cling to seniority like some grand prize, but its the very thing that gives these companies the leverage to bend you over. Think about it.

I mean I could sit here and make assumptions about your job and your pay and I'd probably succeed in p*ssing you off but because I've never worked your field I won't - except to say this. Federal law states that truck drivers get more rest in a 24 hour period than airline pilots and I don't care what anyone says it takes a little more corrdination, attention and skill to fly an aircraft than drive a truck. I'm not saying truck drivers should make less or get less rest I'm saying pilots should get more rest.

Your opinion about my job is irrelevant. Until the day comes that you are signing my checks, your opinion will remain irrelevant. You can ask truck drivers across the board, and they will tell you that the Hours of Service rules are a hinderance to their income. The goverment is legislating your ability to make money. I worked 60-70 hours a week for 8 years, staying out 3-4 weeks at a time, then only getting 2-3 days off. Go cry to someone else about your poor QOL. Understand that everyones opinion is based on their own point of view. From my point of view, your job looks like a vacation in comparison to what I am used to. That may prove to be a poor assumption on my part, only time will tell.

I can empathize with your position, getting your pay cut, benefits reduced, work rules altered, yes I agree its ####ty. Now what are you going to do about it? I don't have the answer. Nobody else seems to have the answer either. Refuse to take it, then maybe you hold on to what you have left, or maybe the company closes its doors and your unemployed. Its a fine line, and tough decisions have to be made.

Remember this though, when cars were invented, nobody gave a #### about the horse salesman or the blacksmith. When the internet came out, nobody cared about all the Travel Agents that lost their jobs. You have to adapt, and make the best of things while you are here.

Now you can go ahead and twist my comments anyway that you wish, that is your right as an American.

 

[pilot602]

Your opinion about my job is irrelevant. Until the day comes that you are signing my checks, your opinion will remain irrelevant.

Yup. Works both ways.

So until the day comes you're sitting in a cockpit on hour 14 of a 15 hour day on your eighth leg your opinion will remain irrelevant. Thanks for playing!

 

[desertdog71]

Yup. Works both ways.

So until the day comes you're sitting in a cockpit on hour 14 of a 15 hour day on your eighth leg your opinion will remain irrelevant. Thanks for playing!

Fair enough, I can live with that.

 

[Killtron2000]

The only problem with this statement is: Qualifications never had one thing to do with high pay for airline pilots. It came about strictly and only because the industry was regulated and protected from competition and ALPA controlled the supply of pilots.

Whether lower pay will eventually lead to less qualified pilots will take quiet a while to figure out. Right now with pay and benfits going in the dumper the industry is awash in some of the best trained, best quality pilots it's ever had. And if this forum is any barometer, more on the way.

Yeah its been opened up to competition so in theory only the best pilots will get the job but some people won't consider a career in aviation if they can expect around 20,000 a year for the first 10 years or so. So this might mean less pilots in the future and so then some pilots will get hired to fly planes they wouldn't be competitive for in todays market. This is compounded by training getting more expensive partly because of fuel prices. Today starting out as a pilot is kind of a daunting prospect with expensive training and low pay and a lot of competition so I would imagine some people would not want to be pilots. But then again a lot of guys do it for the love of flying and they are arguably better pilots. And the lower pay is because there is a lot of qualified pilots who are looking for rapid career advancement to get into shinier jets and better pay.

 

[flyover]

Yup. Works both ways.

So until the day comes you're sitting in a cockpit on hour 14 of a 15 hour day on your eighth leg your opinion will remain irrelevant. Thanks for playing!

Of course by then you'll be fairly incoherent and possibly delusional, so your opinion will still be irrelevant.

 

[flyover]

Those 1000 hours may consist of basic training in a high performance jet and then advanced training in an elite fighter or a transport with 4 engines. Having said that...that doesn't necessarily make them an ideal airline pilot. I know many military pilots who are not good flight crew leaders.

Agree with your points about stick ability. And my comments are shaded by my experience with the last new hires my company was getting before I retired. Very high quality.

But back at the time I was hired a typical 1000 hour military pilot had mostly single seat, day VFR time. Quite possibly had never shot an actual precision approach. Their only multi time (non center-line thrust) was at the school they went to for a quick and dirty multi ATP. Their CRM skills were along the lines of the shower scenes in Top Gun. But I agree that military training has it's advantages and things are certainly different today. No more 4 years and out.

But I still think you original anaysis is opinion not supported by facts.