Right of Way Scenario

[Murdoughnut]

Just a scenario I'm thinking through in my head as I prep for the CFI exam.

You and a student are on downwind, preparing to turn base in a busy pattern, when an aircraft three miles out on a straight in IAP final calls their position. What do you do?

My traditional response would be to extend downwind, make the radio call, and follow the inbound traffic in on an extended base to final. The CFIs I've been flying with lately, however, have suggested it creates more problems to extend a pattern and screw up the flow, and that the IAP aircraft does not have right away because they're not in the traffic pattern.

Of course, FAA guidance says an aircraft landing or in a position to land has right of way.

Thoughts? Get crappy on the radio and suggest the aircraft on final break off and assert my right away, or worry more about collision avoidance than the traffic pattern flow and extend?

 

[Minuteman]

The two realistic scenarios are:

A) y'all extend because yer butt is pointing at the runway. I call this "What if there were a tower telling people to do things?"
or
B) advise them that you are already inbound and then turn for the ole dive on a 45 degree base and the procedure traffic can decide if they want to go missed.

(don't do B unless you like finding poops)

 

[Beaker]

I'm just a guy like you getting ready for the CFI ride, but I agree with your assessment. I would not turn inside of traffic on a 3 mile final at an uncontrolled field, especially if they have given zero indication of how they plan to work themselves into traffic. It's about staying alive rather than who's right. The Watsonville, CA crash comes to mind.

 

[Murdoughnut]

The two realistic scenarios are:

A) y'all extend because yer butt is pointing at the runway. I call this "What if there were a tower telling people to do things?"
or
B) advise them that you are already inbound and then turn for the ole dive on a 45 degree base and the procedure traffic can decide if they want to go missed.

(don't do B unless you like finding poops)

Yeah, my airfield has gotten busy since Career Debt started operating there, and it seems like there's a lot of bickering on comms about aircraft in the pattern vs. not, whereas I've always been happy to extend for an airplane on final that's flying an IAP.

 

[///AMG]

I'm routinely directed to turn inside 3 mile final IFR traffic at my home mil field. They're moving at least 150 knots, me too. It has never been anywhere close to a problem. Granted our "base" turn is probably closer to the 180 position than the standard civilian pattern, but it isn't exactly a safety of flight concern. In those instances, I like to keep the speed up and roll out to the end (we don't have any early exits/high speed exits) and when I do, I'm normally well into my taxi off the active by the time they actually touch down. I guess what I'm saying is that 3 miles is a lot of time with a plane going 150 knots, much less a plane going 50.

 

[MikeD]

This is where good communications and good situational awareness comes into play. Simply talk on the radio. You to the straight in, or him to you hopefully.

IF you can afford to do a short approach / short base…..ie- nothing you are doing requiring a standard length traffic pattern, it might be worthwhile to ask the straight in (right of way or not, this is just exercising good comms and safety) “what’s your speed, do you mind if i sing in front of you base to final?” If the straight in traffic can in any accomodate you by slowing or such, or if they are already very slow, they should say something like “no problem” or “we can slow some”. Especially if you as the pattern traffic are just doing a touch and go. if you are stop and go or full stop, this might not work out.

Or if the straight in has a fast final approach speed, they can request that they go first as they are fast and it’s easier for them to go first and cause you to just have to do a normal distance base pattern hoi may have done anyway.

The worst thing to do is not communicate and just try to take the perceived right of way, one way or another, by either aircraft.

Right of way means very little after a modal collision.