Rest Requirements
- Thread starter stuckingfk
- Start date
higney85
Property of Scheduling
Min rest= 10 hrs.
No RR.
Max scheduled duty=12hrs
Max duty allowed= 14hrs
Max block in a 24 hour period (domestic)= 8hrs
Pairings cannot have "show times" that vary by more than 3 hours local time.
ex. if you have a 4-day trip you would have morning or mid-day shows. You would not be able to have early shows day 1 and 2 followed by a late show that has a day ending at midnight on day 3. The body can't adjust just because crewtrac doesn't show up red.
..Just off the top of my head.
No RR.
Max scheduled duty=12hrs
Max duty allowed= 14hrs
Max block in a 24 hour period (domestic)= 8hrs
Pairings cannot have "show times" that vary by more than 3 hours local time.
ex. if you have a 4-day trip you would have morning or mid-day shows. You would not be able to have early shows day 1 and 2 followed by a late show that has a day ending at midnight on day 3. The body can't adjust just because crewtrac doesn't show up red.
..Just off the top of my head.
JaceTheAce
Well-Known Member
Just playing devil's advocate here. There is a way that limiting duty time to 10 hours will screw us over in days off. By limiting 10 hours of duty time at a regional airline with horribly inefficient schedules (long sits and short blocked flights) will only barely allow pilots to break guarantee. There would have to be an increase of guarantee to 80-85 hours/month in order to force the company to build more efficient crew schedules if we start limiting the duty time to 10 hours.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I was with you until you said that. There's nothing I love in the world more than standups. I would be miserable having to go back to regular trips. Standups are not at all dangerous if they are handled properly. Our work rules require the company to put all standups on pure standup lines. You are limited to no more than three of them in a row, and any group of standups must be followed by at least three full days off. With those rules, there is no excuse for being fatigued while flying standups.
I can see the following happen soon - all commuter are reauired to report to your base 12 to 24 prior designated report time.
I doubt it. Tons of pilots would quit their jobs before they had to start putting up with those kinds of restrictions on their commutes. I could see 20-30% of the Pinnacle DTW base resigning within a couple of months if that rule was put into effect. Lots of pilots only put up with this crappy career because of the ability to live wherever you want. Make commuting more onerous and a good number of them will bail. I know I wouldn't have stuck around Pinnacle if my choices were either living in base or putting up with that kind of commuting rule.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
If they want me to be somewhere then they can tell me to be there, but that constitutes a beginning of a duty period.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
Rest requirements should be based on the number of sectors (or legs), time zone changes involved and minimize circadian swaps. With more sectors, more timezone crossing all involving more rest.
This is a good start: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP371.PDF
This is a good start: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP371.PDF
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
Yes and yes
The one time I called out fatigued I had worked 7 of 8 days and had 3 13 plus duty days in a row due to diversions. Crew scheduling adjusted our show time to give 8 hrs of rest. By the time van sauntered to the airport, crew scheduling quit calling me with new plan updates, the hotel found me a room that wasn't occupied I was in the room at 1115 for 5 am show for a 6 leg 12.5 hr duty day. Crew scheduling didn't give a hoot, and I took the originator back in and called off.
chris
Well-Known Member
At Jazz, we have a min crew rest limit of 10hrs when on a layover. At home base, the min crew rest is 12hrs, but we can wave it to 11hrs if we choose. Our pairings rarely switch from a morning to an afternoon, but it can happen, especially if you have a "hot spot" layover like IAH, where we usually have 18hrs off, causing our next day to be an afternoon checkin. Personally I hate this, but I hate continuous duties more than anything. I wish we had a limit on how many we can do, but we dont. The bookoff rate tends to be high, and they are usually left to be flown by people on days off for overtime. But I still say no to them. I just finished one last night, had 7hrs between landing and takeoff, but it still sucked.
For cont duties, I like the limit ATN_Pilot mentioned at Air Tran. There should definetly be a limit on how many you can do in a row, and, how many you can do in a month.
The Canadian Regs for flight time limits (applies to commuter/airlines) are as follows:
- 1200hrs in 365 days
- 300hrs in 90 days
- 120 hrs in 30 days (100hrs if youre on call)
- 40 hrs in 7 days
Ive flown +900hrs in the last year, which is quite high I guess. When I was reserve I always tried to fly as much as possible though. Our blocking average is around 80hrs. 75hrs is our min guarantee (used to be 85hrs before bankruptcy), and anything over 85 is OT. With our upcoming contract negotiations, Id like to see 80-85hrs as a min guarantee.
Basic crew rest requirements under Transport Canada are:
- max 14hr duty day. This includes a 15 minute post-flight debrief period (i.e. you must be at the gate by 13:45).
- If you have 3 consecutive 12hr duty days, you must receive a full 24hrs off.
- You must have 36hrs consecutive free from duty every 7 days, OR, have a minimum 3 consecutive days off every 17 days.
I usually get way more than the required crew rest. But for commuters, they will let you go to the limit to maximize your days off in a row. Im not a commuter, so I always bid to work no more than 6 days in a row, and I pretty much never do more than that. The most Ive done is 8 during Christmas, and my layovers were all long and the days were short.
For cont duties, I like the limit ATN_Pilot mentioned at Air Tran. There should definetly be a limit on how many you can do in a row, and, how many you can do in a month.
The Canadian Regs for flight time limits (applies to commuter/airlines) are as follows:
- 1200hrs in 365 days
- 300hrs in 90 days
- 120 hrs in 30 days (100hrs if youre on call)
- 40 hrs in 7 days
Ive flown +900hrs in the last year, which is quite high I guess. When I was reserve I always tried to fly as much as possible though. Our blocking average is around 80hrs. 75hrs is our min guarantee (used to be 85hrs before bankruptcy), and anything over 85 is OT. With our upcoming contract negotiations, Id like to see 80-85hrs as a min guarantee.
Basic crew rest requirements under Transport Canada are:
- max 14hr duty day. This includes a 15 minute post-flight debrief period (i.e. you must be at the gate by 13:45).
- If you have 3 consecutive 12hr duty days, you must receive a full 24hrs off.
- You must have 36hrs consecutive free from duty every 7 days, OR, have a minimum 3 consecutive days off every 17 days.
I usually get way more than the required crew rest. But for commuters, they will let you go to the limit to maximize your days off in a row. Im not a commuter, so I always bid to work no more than 6 days in a row, and I pretty much never do more than that. The most Ive done is 8 during Christmas, and my layovers were all long and the days were short.
sherpa
Well-Known Member
Affording lodging is the issue. If the company gave an increased housing reimbursement up to 250 dollars a month in select "approved" facilities that would make it much more likely for someone to get adequate rest.
Other employee groups get locality wage increases so this should not be a foreign concept and MGMT shouldn't wait for contract negotiations because this is primarily a safety issue not a quality of life issue.
L-16B
Well-Known Member
I would love nothing more than better rest rules, but I am totally for this. I wish every line would flip flop - I would love to have late shows my first day, and Finish early on my last day, making it fully commutable. I know it can happen I've seen the jetlink lines and they have this. This would maxamize my time off. I'm sick and tired of either all early or all late.
aloft
New Member
Re: If I was king....
As the ALPA safety guy told the NTSB a week or so ago, there is no universally safe amount of rest; it depends upon the proposed flying, and the flying performed in the previous several days. 36 hrs might not even be sufficient after a super-long-haul flight, even with augmented crews.
FlyChicaga
Vintage Restoration
Since I have no experience flying international, I'll only speak of domestic.
Minimum 10 hour rest period, no less. Maximum scheduled duty of 12 hours, extendable to 14 hours. That means standard rest periods would typically be 12 hours. 12 hours minimum domicile rest, able to be reduced to 10 hours with consent of the crewmember. If your show time is between 12:00AM and 4:00AM, max scheduled duty is 11 hours, extendable to 12.5. Rest after a 12AM-4AM start is 12 hours, which cannot be reduced. However, to balance things out, bring up the maximum flight time from 8 hours to 10 hours (I'm going to get bashed for this one, I know it). I just don't see us getting everything and the airlines getting nothing.
I see no problem flying two extra hours if it means I can be on duty two LESS hours. The problem for me is not flying time. The problem is all the delays and extensive sit time built into a normal day. You can have a 15 hour duty day with only 7 hours of flying; those are the days I find most fatiguing. I know this will bring up the JetBlue "experiment" on trans-con flying, which is similar to what I'm talking about. However, rather than just increasing the amount of flying hours we can fly, we are also decreasing the number of hours we can be on duty. Fly more, rest more. Perfect balance if you ask me.
Imagine this: A three day trip worth 28 hours of flying. Hard work? You bet. But if you know you're getting 7-8 hours of solid rest in bed (10 hour minimum, 12 hour standard), and you know you're going to be utilized effectively, then that also means more time at home. I typically fly four-day trips worth 20 hours, on average. Four of those trips means 80 hours of flying time, and 16 days on/14 days off. That's a BEST case scenario. Now imagine a schedule consisting of two three-day trips and a four-day trip that equaled 80 hours (26, 26, 28). That's 10 days on, with 20 days off!
Would all companies build trips like that immediately? No, of course not. But personally, having the ability to work hard at work, and have much more time off to eat home cooked food (healthier food), exercise, and sleep in my own bed would pay dividends in the long run. I think even more than the difficult sleep schedules is the time away from decent food and a comfortable, familiar rest environment.
I am not entirely fond of our schedules, and commuting is rough. However, I knew it would be this way coming into aviation, and I do my best to cope with it. Pilots fly long distances across many time zones at every hour of the day and night, so fighting fatigue is nothing new.
Before everyone jumps on me for the 10-hour flying limit, ask yourself: Realistically, do you truly believe that we'll be able to gain extra rest for nothing in return? With all the pressure that organizations like the ATA/RAA and the airlines put upon Congress?
Minimum 10 hour rest period, no less. Maximum scheduled duty of 12 hours, extendable to 14 hours. That means standard rest periods would typically be 12 hours. 12 hours minimum domicile rest, able to be reduced to 10 hours with consent of the crewmember. If your show time is between 12:00AM and 4:00AM, max scheduled duty is 11 hours, extendable to 12.5. Rest after a 12AM-4AM start is 12 hours, which cannot be reduced. However, to balance things out, bring up the maximum flight time from 8 hours to 10 hours (I'm going to get bashed for this one, I know it). I just don't see us getting everything and the airlines getting nothing.
I see no problem flying two extra hours if it means I can be on duty two LESS hours. The problem for me is not flying time. The problem is all the delays and extensive sit time built into a normal day. You can have a 15 hour duty day with only 7 hours of flying; those are the days I find most fatiguing. I know this will bring up the JetBlue "experiment" on trans-con flying, which is similar to what I'm talking about. However, rather than just increasing the amount of flying hours we can fly, we are also decreasing the number of hours we can be on duty. Fly more, rest more. Perfect balance if you ask me.
Imagine this: A three day trip worth 28 hours of flying. Hard work? You bet. But if you know you're getting 7-8 hours of solid rest in bed (10 hour minimum, 12 hour standard), and you know you're going to be utilized effectively, then that also means more time at home. I typically fly four-day trips worth 20 hours, on average. Four of those trips means 80 hours of flying time, and 16 days on/14 days off. That's a BEST case scenario. Now imagine a schedule consisting of two three-day trips and a four-day trip that equaled 80 hours (26, 26, 28). That's 10 days on, with 20 days off!
Would all companies build trips like that immediately? No, of course not. But personally, having the ability to work hard at work, and have much more time off to eat home cooked food (healthier food), exercise, and sleep in my own bed would pay dividends in the long run. I think even more than the difficult sleep schedules is the time away from decent food and a comfortable, familiar rest environment.
I am not entirely fond of our schedules, and commuting is rough. However, I knew it would be this way coming into aviation, and I do my best to cope with it. Pilots fly long distances across many time zones at every hour of the day and night, so fighting fatigue is nothing new.
Before everyone jumps on me for the 10-hour flying limit, ask yourself: Realistically, do you truly believe that we'll be able to gain extra rest for nothing in return? With all the pressure that organizations like the ATA/RAA and the airlines put upon Congress?
FlyChicaga
Vintage Restoration
Re: If I was king....
Exactly.
There are many factors that play into fatigue. Not just a lack of sleep, but true fatigue on the body. Excessive heat in the summer, or excessive cold in winter. Many flying legs with quick turn times, therefore no time for a good meal (improper nutrition). Eating too late in the day. Lack of exercise. These are all things that can lead to not only feeling exhausted, but cumulatively can tear a person down to the point they cannot function.
I was talking with a friend who flies the B747 at UPS out of ANC. He commutes from SDF up there, and does trips pretty much exclusively to Asia. When discussing how the job was affecting his body, he told me it was "brutal." Without eating right, a lot of exercise, and time off to recuperate, it would kill him. Our lives down here in the lower 48 are not much different.
Exactly.
There are many factors that play into fatigue. Not just a lack of sleep, but true fatigue on the body. Excessive heat in the summer, or excessive cold in winter. Many flying legs with quick turn times, therefore no time for a good meal (improper nutrition). Eating too late in the day. Lack of exercise. These are all things that can lead to not only feeling exhausted, but cumulatively can tear a person down to the point they cannot function.
I was talking with a friend who flies the B747 at UPS out of ANC. He commutes from SDF up there, and does trips pretty much exclusively to Asia. When discussing how the job was affecting his body, he told me it was "brutal." Without eating right, a lot of exercise, and time off to recuperate, it would kill him. Our lives down here in the lower 48 are not much different.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
Re: If I was king....
I'd say that the schedule, just like the 4 on/3 off domestic, or the overnight domestic freight, is really dependent on the individual.
Flying the same routes to Asia, I feel alot less beat up than I did flying a 4 on /3 off schedule.
Some guys, this type of flying tears up, and some guys, it doesn't really affect. This is based a bit on my own experience, and some of it by talking to guys who have done this type of flying 20+ years.
I'd say that the schedule, just like the 4 on/3 off domestic, or the overnight domestic freight, is really dependent on the individual.
Flying the same routes to Asia, I feel alot less beat up than I did flying a 4 on /3 off schedule.
Some guys, this type of flying tears up, and some guys, it doesn't really affect. This is based a bit on my own experience, and some of it by talking to guys who have done this type of flying 20+ years.
zmiller4
Well-Known Member
I think it's actually a really tough question. 8hrs of "rest" is obviously BS, but I know that in most of our overnights I would be fine with 9. The exception would be hubs like Denver, where you've got a 15-20 min walk to get to a shuttle that comes every 1/2 hr and takes 20 mins to the hotel...so with 9hrs you'd end up with way less than 8 at the hotel.
As a commuter, though, I like bidding trips that have a short final overnight to get an early release. Having an 11 or 12 hr minimum seems like it might reduce trips like that. I know that personally I'm able to make sure I get enough sleep in those situations, but I know some people can't.
I guess what I'd really like to see is a mandatory 10 hrs scheduled rest that can be reduced to 9 by the crew member only. I know this could create potential conflicts between crewmembers, but I really like the idea of letting the pilots (and FA's) have input into how much rest they actually need.
As a commuter, though, I like bidding trips that have a short final overnight to get an early release. Having an 11 or 12 hr minimum seems like it might reduce trips like that. I know that personally I'm able to make sure I get enough sleep in those situations, but I know some people can't.
I guess what I'd really like to see is a mandatory 10 hrs scheduled rest that can be reduced to 9 by the crew member only. I know this could create potential conflicts between crewmembers, but I really like the idea of letting the pilots (and FA's) have input into how much rest they actually need.
stuckingfk
Well-Known Member
zmiller,
In theory that would work (some people need more rest, some don't), but the FAA would never sign off on that. They would need something concrete, ie a blanket for everyone.
Here is an an idea that I have for domestic operations only
I know some who will like this and obviously many who won't. It rewards people for living in base, but also pays for the few hotels/crashpad commuters will need throughout the month. Do I think this would ever get signed off on? No, but it brings up an interesting discussion.
In theory that would work (some people need more rest, some don't), but the FAA would never sign off on that. They would need something concrete, ie a blanket for everyone.
Here is an an idea that I have for domestic operations only
- All airlines are required to pay all pilots a stipend for cost of living increases for each respectable base.
- Commuters, with their seniority, who aren't able to hold afternoon show times will be assigned early a.m. shows.
- With regards to the above statement, crossing multiple time zones is not allowed.
I know some who will like this and obviously many who won't. It rewards people for living in base, but also pays for the few hotels/crashpad commuters will need throughout the month. Do I think this would ever get signed off on? No, but it brings up an interesting discussion.
