Requiring a Dispatcher to work Past 10 hours

[BoilerOps]

As such, refusing to function as a dispatcher should those flights require it is a dereliction of duty in the eyes of the Feds. So in direct answer to your question, yes you are obliged to stay until your flights terminate or you hand them off to another QUALIFIED dispatcher.

Exactly!

 

[BayouMLU]

So can someone clarify for me... Sometimes we have flex night schedules, where flights go past midnight. They leave the dispatchers on the scheduled normal shift 2-midnight. When you walk into the door they inform you it's a flex night and you will need to stay past midnight. Am I obligated to stay? It would be nice if they scheduled it and let us know in advance. Which is never the case it plays out as mentioned above.

Intellectually dishonest at best, IMO.

 

[McCrosky]

This is where a union contract or a solid company policy comes into play... do you have specific language saying that at 10:01 the dispatcher shall not release any additional flights. The FARs do not prohibit such activity as long as it was unscheduled. It's not a optimal situation, but on an IROP day or due to other unforeseen circumstances, just telling the company you refuse to release any more aircraft when it hits 10:01 probably isn't going to cut it as the regulation doesn't state this is "illegal."

Here's interesting spin, a pilot cannot depart if the flight as scheduled will cause him to go over a duty/flight time limit. So, by allowing a delayed flight to depart, would that be, from a strictly legal interpretation, the same as allowing a flight to depart when you know it will put you over a duty limit of a crewmember?

So can someone clarify for me... Sometimes we have flex night schedules, where flights go past midnight. They leave the dispatchers on the scheduled normal shift 2-midnight. When you walk into the door they inform you it's a flex night and you will need to stay past midnight. Am I obligated to stay? It would be nice if they scheduled it and let us know in advance. Which is never the case it plays out as mentioned above.

I call shenanigans! If you have 10 hours notice that doesn't seem like that's a situation that qualifies as an emergency or circumstances beyond control. Sounds more like poor company scheduling and trying to save money on staffing.

 

[Hecklers2002]

Here's interesting spin, a pilot cannot depart if the flight as scheduled will cause him to go over a duty/flight time limit. So, by allowing a delayed flight to depart, would that be, from a strictly legal interpretation, the same as allowing a flight to depart when you know it will put you over a duty limit of a crewmember?



I call shenanigans! If you have 10 hours notice that doesn't seem like that's a situation that qualifies as an emergency or circumstances beyond control. Sounds more like poor company scheduling and trying to save money on staffing.

You've got it all right. A sick call or change or schedule ahead of time is still within the operator's control to find someone to cover after your 10 hours of duty. Essentially if you release that last set of flights and they are SCHEDULED to arrive past your 10 hour duty time and NOBODY is coming in to take over those flights, you are dispatching those flights illegally.

 

[pljenkins]

In any event, your obligation is to protect yourself. As such it is incumbent upon you in the eyes of the feds to alert them when there is a willful violation of the regulations and you are aware of it. You can go about this several ways, but in the immediacy if you feel in any way that you might have been complicit in this violation by agreeing to release flights that you were aware were scheduled in advance (meaning delays didn't alter the original schedule) to exceed your legal schedule as per regulation, you may find the Feds asking you some rather uncomfortable questions. My suggestion is if your company has an ASAP program or similar self-disclosure mechanism, use that immediately. If it doesn't, use a NASA form. Obviously if you are unionized your chair needs to be aware of this.

 

[Phil Schuyler]

So can someone clarify for me... Sometimes we have flex night schedules, where flights go past midnight. They leave the dispatchers on the scheduled normal shift 2-midnight. When you walk into the door they inform you it's a flex night and you will need to stay past midnight. Am I obligated to stay? It would be nice if they scheduled it and let us know in advance. Which is never the case it plays out as mentioned above.

That would seem a violation of the regulation because, in effect, they are scheduling you longer than 10 hours. It's one thing to have to stay late because some flights ran behind schedule. It's another to walk into the shift knowing, before you start, that you will be there past 10 hours.

 

[MT]

My interpretation of this is Scheduled vs Actual. If the carrier has flights scheduled to arrive past the last dispatchers 10 hour shift then the carrier must cover that with another dispatcher. However if day of operation a line of flying is running late past that dispatcher's 10 hour shift then that is out of the airlines control and would not need the extra dispatcher. If you wanted to be extra conservative then call that dispatcher prior to duty and delay his report time.

 

[Squirrel]

If you are working for a domestic or international 121 carrier I would guarantee your FSDO would take a very dim view of this. His interpretation would be that this is scheduling beyond 10 hours by proxy since your employer is aware of and is intentionally not resolving the scheduling issue.

Now as to your obligation I would say this. Per the FARs a dispatcher must be on duty any time an aircraft under his jurisdiction is in flight. What I see a lot of here is "hey I'm gonna stop releasing flights and in effect become a flight follower". Wrong answer. When you relieved the previous dispatcher you took over authority of those flights and became the dispatcher in authority of those flights, regardless of who initially released it. As such, refusing to function as a dispatcher should those flights require it is a dereliction of duty in the eyes of the Feds. So in direct answer to your question, yes you are obliged to stay until your flights terminate or you hand them off to another QUALIFIED dispatcher.

True anything in the air you must flight monitor and help. Flight following is total different and no you shouldn't just do that. My thing is after the 10 hour mark you shouldn't have to dispatch any new flights. Only exception I see is if you have a diversion and still get the flight to original destination within reasonable time.

 

[Hecklers2002]

My interpretation of this is Scheduled vs Actual. If the carrier has flights scheduled to arrive past the last dispatchers 10 hour shift then the carrier must cover that with another dispatcher. However if day of operation a line of flying is running late past that dispatcher's 10 hour shift then that is out of the airlines control and would not need the extra dispatcher. If you wanted to be extra conservative then call that dispatcher prior to duty and delay his report time.

FAA interprets a delayed line as being in the Operator's control because you now know that flights will run late and have the control to cover anything past that 10 hours. ALSO If that dispatcher releases that delayed flight knowing that it won't complete its flight within his 10 hour duty time with nobody to pass it on too, then the dispatcher has violated the duty regs.

If you're in a 24/7 operation you more than likely will never run into this problem.

 

[dispatchguy]

I had this happen to me at a small regional. We only had 4 DX on the seniority list - I'm the AM guy. The PM guy calls and said he was in the hospital with a heart attack (yeah right, but), so he's not coming in. I called my immediate supervisor (who was in Florida at the time, we were in Indiana) and he said he'd try and call around. The other DX were all out of town. One DX was in PA with family, the other DX was over in Western Iowa relocating wife's family. So it was stay or cancel the rest of the day.

The WX in our small route system was Hard VFR, and the aircraft were operating well and all the flights were covered by crews, so I figured WTF, and ran the whole day.

I told my supervisor and the Director of SOC that had the WX been crap, we would've started canceling the when we knew there was no afternoon coverage. However, that day was honestly one of the easiest days I've ever had on the desk. I felt fine and to be honest, I saw no reason to cancel and set up for tomorrow. I wasnt the AM guy for the next day so I didnt have to quick turn after I got off shift.

 

[av8or757]

10+ hours dispatching beats the hell out of 8 hours ramping LOL

My feet and knees have aged quickly the last 4-5 years.

 

[BayouMLU]

There are days when I miss the ramp and could use a little "bag therapy".

 

[av8or757]

There are days when I miss the ramp and could use a little "bag therapy".

Bayou you just need a beer my man, not bag therapy Hahahaha .

 

[Glideslope Gary]

This is completely legal as long as said dispatcher sleeps through the remainder of his/her shift beyond the 10 hour mark.

 

[Brett Spurgeon]

This is completely legal as long as said dispatcher sleeps through the remainder of his/her shift beyond the 10 hour mark.

If you sleep through the first half of your shift, you'll be well-rested for the extension.

 

[BirdIsTheWord]

This has come up in our office as well. Regs state that we cannot be scheduled over 10 hours. It goes on to say "circumstances beyond the control..." But again all references are to scheduled. Most of our office is pretty go-with-the-flow-get-the-job-done, but we have one pushing the "it's not legal to sign a release after 10 hours." Obviously the regs are written vague, but I've searched the legal interpretations and come up with nothing to support that claim. Has anyone had a Fed address this issue?

 

[pljenkins]

Regs are perfectly clear in this regard. The company cannot schedule you beyond 10 hours of duty. Intentionally creating circumstances that result in your needing to stay beyond your scheduled duty time is a clear violation of this regulation. There are very few legitimate circumstances that fall within the "beyond the operators control" definition and none of them will occur on a regular or even semi regular basis.

As to the argument of not releasing flights beyond your 10 hour duty day, there are no regulations prohibiting this, however you have a responsibility to ensure you are "fit for duty" and not fatigued. I mentioned this before and I will mention this again, once you relieve a dispatcher, you become the dispatcher on record for those flights you assume operational control of, regardless of the name on the release. Further, the regulations clearly state that a dispatcher shall be on duty any time flights are operating. If you feel that your fatigue level is such that you can no longer safely operate the onus is upon you to shut it down, land airborne planes asap and call it a day.

Incidentally, more than one workgroup has organized because of these types of shenanigans.

 

[Hecklers2002]

This has come up in our office as well. Regs state that we cannot be scheduled over 10 hours. It goes on to say "circumstances beyond the control..." But again all references are to scheduled. Most of our office is pretty go-with-the-flow-get-the-job-done, but we have one pushing the "it's not legal to sign a release after 10 hours." Obviously the regs are written vague, but I've searched the legal interpretations and come up with nothing to support that claim. Has anyone had a Fed address this issue?

I wouldn't say the regs are vague. It's more a matter of understanding and interpretation of this particular regulation. It is understood that if you are going to sign a release for a flight after your 10 hour duty limit OR the flight KNOWINGLY isn't going to complete during your 10 hour duty limit then there should be another scheduled dispatcher to relieve you. If there isn't one then you understand that you are knowingly releasing a flight that will now knowingly take you past your duty limit. This is illegal.

The 'out of operator control' factor would only come into play for instance if you released your last flight and it's started and then your relief calls out sick. Now you have to sit and watch that particular flight to completion. HOWEVER it is now in the operator's control to find a dispatcher to relieve you if there's more flights to be dispatched. So if you release another flight knowing that there's no dispatcher to cover after the fact of the sick call, then it's a violation.

 

[pljenkins]

I wouldn't say the regs are vague. It's more a matter of understanding and interpretation of this particular regulation. It is understood that if you are going to sign a release for a flight after your 10 hour duty limit OR the flight KNOWINGLY isn't going to complete during your 10 hour duty limit then there should be another scheduled dispatcher to relieve you. If there isn't one then you understand that you are knowingly releasing a flight that will now knowingly take you past your duty limit. This is illegal.

So, using this logic, if I dispatch a flight that is due to arrive within the 10 hours of my duty day and it subsequently encounters a departure delay, my allowing that flight to leave is a violation of regulations? I disagree. There is no regulation that specifically addresses this.

The 'out of operator control' factor would only come into play for instance if you released your last flight and it's started and then your relief calls out sick. Now you have to sit and watch that particular flight to completion. HOWEVER it is now in the operator's control to find a dispatcher to relieve you if there's more flights to be dispatched. So if you release another flight knowing that there's no dispatcher to cover after the fact of the sick call, then it's a violation.

I disagree on technicality. Though it certainly doesn't make sense to fire off more releases that will exceed your duty day, there is no regulation prohibiting such practice.

Remember, the regulations say what they say, and they don't say what they don't say. 121.465 is VERY specific about what it means. Nowhere in there does it indicate that failure to comply WITH THAT SECTION is a DISPATCHER violation subject to certificate action. You ARE authorized to continue your duties beyond the 10 hour scheduled duty time, subjected to your ability to safely continue to perform your function. We are offered NO rest protection under the regs beyond that which are stipulated in 121.465, specifically 8 hours of rest between shifts and 24 hours of every 7 days or the equivalent thereof (read: 4 days off in a month).

So if you get stuck beyond your 10 hours shift and you decide to shut it down, by all means do so if you feel it's the safe course of action, but for god's sake don't stand in front of your director of operations the next day and tell him you did that because the regs said you had to, or you're going to be very unhappy with the results.

 

[Hecklers2002]

So, using this logic, if I dispatch a flight that is due to arrive within the 10 hours of my duty day and it subsequently encounters a departure delay, my allowing that flight to leave is a violation of regulations? I disagree. There is no regulation that specifically addresses this.



I disagree on technicality. Though it certainly doesn't make sense to fire off more releases that will exceed your duty day, there is no regulation prohibiting such practice.

Remember, the regulations say what they say, and they don't say what they don't say. 121.465 is VERY specific about what it means. Nowhere in there does it indicate that failure to comply WITH THAT SECTION is a DISPATCHER violation subject to certificate action. You ARE authorized to continue your duties beyond the 10 hour scheduled duty time, subjected to your ability to safely continue to perform your function. We are offered NO rest protection under the regs beyond that which are stipulated in 121.465, specifically 8 hours of rest between shifts and 24 hours of every 7 days or the equivalent thereof (read: 4 days off in a month).

So if you get stuck beyond your 10 hours shift and you decide to shut it down, by all means do so if you feel it's the safe course of action, but for god's sake don't stand in front of your director of operations the next day and tell him you did that because the regs said you had to, or you're going to be very unhappy with the results.

The pivot on this regulation falls on "within the operator's control" aspect. There are so many situations that come up and can take either side of this regulation.