Republic buying Frontier

I know, it's those Republic pilots again. THEY alone are ruining our industry.
Hope none show up for my jumpseat.

And where did this start up again? Last time I checked all of 5 years ago RAH was a crappy regional with some turbo prop planes.... Things change fast for the better and can also go down south real fast. We will have to wait and see what happens with RAH. Only time can truely tell. But if pay rates do not match that of Jetblue for the E175/E190 there should indeed be hell to pay directed towards the pilot group of RAH. They have the leverage and MUST not settle for anything less then mainline pay for the E175/E190 and not follow the mesa crappy pay they agreed to recently for an 86 seat Aircraft.

However if it ends up that RAH does indeed become the airline that controls both F9 and Midwest both of their pilot groups should be at the top of the seniority list, followed by the regional guys... But that's an issue we can all wait to see how it works out.
 
Like Polar's been saying, this is a priceless opportunity for the RAH pilot group. They need to understand that they aren't solely responsible for this and need to focus on their rights. Everything else will come full circle. The same goes for the Frontier pilot group. There will likely be some give and take, but the company's asking for some unreasonable things. DO NOT give up vital rights that you deserve!
 
And where did this start up again? Last time I checked all of 5 years ago RAH was a crappy regional with some turbo prop planes.... Things change fast for the better and can also go down south real fast. We will have to wait and see what happens with RAH. Only time can truely tell. But if pay rates do not match that of Jetblue for the E175/E190 there should indeed be hell to pay directed towards the pilot group of RAH. They have the leverage and MUST not settle for anything less then mainline pay for the E175/E190 and not follow the mesa crappy pay they agreed to recently for an 86 seat Aircraft.

There's a lot of truth to that, just look at Braniff (1) as an example. In the meantime though, i'm on furlough from Republic, and I sure hope this whole thing gets taken care of fairly for all involved, and in the process all of the involved pilot groups had better use this as an opportunity to fix the payrate problems as well.
 
There's a lot of truth to that, just look at Braniff (1) as an example. In the meantime though, i'm on furlough from Republic, and I sure hope this whole thing gets taken care of fairly for all involved, and in the process all of the involved pilot groups had better use this as an opportunity to fix the payrate problems as well.

Oooh. That's gonna be another issue if they actually do merge the lists. Doesn't Frontier also have people on furlough?
 
However if it ends up that RAH does indeed become the airline that controls both F9 and Midwest both of their pilot groups should be at the top of the seniority list, followed by the regional guys... But that's an issue we can all wait to see how it works out.

I want to hear your logic on this one.
 
Oooh. That's gonna be another issue if they actually do merge the lists. Doesn't Frontier also have people on furlough?

Yes, 56. And we have 104 I think. All the RAH guys are still on probation as longevity does not accrue during a furlough or LOA. Don't know how long the time between hiring and furloughs was at Frontier.
 
This is a nightmare scenario on so many levels. I just hope a mainline carrier swoops in and makes a better offer, but I'm not holding my breath.

There are merger protocols in CBA and the Allegheny-Mohawk.

Read up on those.

Allegheny-Mohawk is very general in nature. Bond-McCaskill requires an integration to be "fair and equitable," but nowhere does it specify what that entails, and neither do the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs. The LPPs lay out a process to be followed which is extremely similar to ALPA Merger Policy, but unlike ALPA Merger Policy, the LPPs never give a list of priorities and guidelines to be followed. What exactly is "fair and equitable?" DOH? Ratio? Career expectations? Who knows? This could shape up to be an arbitration nightmare.

With that said, I've spent some time this evening looking through the RAH contract in-depth for the first time. Thankfully it's the most well-written IBT contract I've come across. I'm not sure who they used for the scope counsel, but based on reading it, it seems almost certain that it was written by outside counsel and not by Mr. Sowell. That's a good thing. The language is pretty all-inclusive, and LOA #5 seems to do a decent job of binding "Holdings" to the agreement. If Bedford thinks he's going to be able to get out of the scope protections, I'm not sure where he's seeing his loophole. I'm certainly not seeing one. I do doubt that he intends to actually merge the lists, though, so I wonder whether he's already worked out some sort of backdoor deal with the IBT that hasn't been made public yet. What are the Bylaws provisions in Local 747 for ratification of LOAs? Do the members get to vote if scope is modified, or does the EXBD get sole discretion?

Lots of questions on this one, but I've got a really bad feeling about where this is heading.
 
Allegheny-Mohawk is very general in nature. Bond-McCaskill requires an integration to be "fair and equitable," but nowhere does it specify what that entails, and neither do the Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs. The LPPs lay out a process to be followed which is extremely similar to ALPA Merger Policy, but unlike ALPA Merger Policy, the LPPs never give a list of priorities and guidelines to be followed. What exactly is "fair and equitable?" DOH? Ratio? Career expectations? Who knows? This could shape up to be an arbitration nightmare.

With that said, I've spent some time this evening looking through the RAH contract in-depth for the first time. Thankfully it's the most well-written IBT contract I've come across. I'm not sure who they used for the scope counsel, but based on reading it, it seems almost certain that it was written by outside counsel and not by Mr. Sowell. That's a good thing. The language is pretty all-inclusive, and LOA #5 seems to do a decent job of binding "Holdings" to the agreement. If Bedford thinks he's going to be able to get out of the scope protections, I'm not sure where he's seeing his loophole. I'm certainly not seeing one. I do doubt that he intends to actually merge the lists, though, so I wonder whether he's already worked out some sort of backdoor deal with the IBT that hasn't been made public yet. What are the Bylaws provisions in Local 747 for ratification of LOAs? Do the members get to vote if scope is modified, or does the EXBD get sole discretion?

Lots of questions on this one, but I've got a really bad feeling about where this is heading.

Believe it or not, Sowell did write the scope. That's from a guy that negotiated the contract. Probably the only decent thing the man ever did.

BB already tried to sidestep the scope and was denied. You know he's real smart, but he can't outsmart the scope. He's tried for 6 years (I know of 2 attempts stymied)

Besides the scope, here's the one other thing I like about Teamsters, at least the 747. LOAs must be voted on by the general membership, which is why the J4J agreement at the other USAir ALPA represented Expresses which granted super-seniority and Captain seats and privileges that the underpaid and over worked pilots of those carriers didn't enjoy was not approved in that format at RAH.

I must take to task the last paragraph. Look at AirTran and the success they've become. You work there, you should know. It wasn't always where successful people went. Like Midwest (Express - at that time) and Frontier, that's where people went to get jet time when all the commuters flew props so they could move on to TWA, AA, UAL or where ever. Over time, AirTran has improved itself to a respectable job. I don't see why anyone writes off a regional to do the same thing.

Everyone hails the CoEx contract, but prior to that, they weren't setting the world on fire. ComAir was the hot one. And of course, AWAC held its ground as they kept getting smaller and smaller.

It's all a cycle, a growth, and evolution. It's time for the RAH pilots to stand up.

I don't write all these posts because I think RAH is the best place to work or whatever. I mean I left. However, alot of the posts I see are based in absolute hogwash with no basis of fact, or any humility from people who have worked for a carrier for under 24 months and don't realize that 36 months prior to that, the carrier wasn't worth working for.

Change doesn't happen overnight. Positive change sure doesn't. This website is all about "paying it forward", and what I see alot in the "Airline Pilots" forum is not that. Instead of working together and exchanging ideas to improve, it's a wang measurement convention. Guess what? All the airlines, at one time or another, were total crap to work for.

People gush about WN and FL, but I'm young and I remember when they were the equivalent to what Allegiant is now. (Of course, WN has always taken a unique tack towards its employees).

Let's support the RAH guys as they happen to work for the regional that's changing the industry.

This can go one of two ways. It can elevate the pilot group to earnings and QoL they demand and deserve, or it can turn into a hard scrabble work place.

I know where the defeatist attitude will take it. At this juncture, it's clear. BB is a magical businessman. However, he's not in it to make life better for the employees, only to make money for the share holders. It's time everyone supports the RAH guys and encourages (not berates) them to get the contract they deserve.

We never know what airline is next on the growth or chopping block.
 
I don't see how the Midwest pilots come into this at all since RAH hasn't bought Midwest. The Midwest pilots already got the shaft from their management.
 
BB already tried to sidestep the scope and was denied. You know he's real smart, but he can't outsmart the scope. He's tried for 6 years (I know of 2 attempts stymied)

Famous last words. I hope you're right. I really do. I just don't see it. I just can't imagine a scenario in which Bedford would actually agree to merge the two seniority lists. Something else has to be going on here.

LOAs must be voted on by the general membership

Always a good idea. We have that in our MEC Policy Manual here at AirTran, too. A certain ALPA rep made sure to include it when he wrote the manual. ;)

I don't see why anyone writes off a regional to do the same thing.

I certainly don't write them off, but I have serious concerns. The current RAH CBA contains pay rates for "all jets" for FOs. It doesn't stop at 99 seats like the CA rates do. We could easily see Airbus FOs making 50-set RJ wages. Like I said, that's an absolute nightmare. Sowell may have done a good job on scope (that remains to be seen), but he did a horrible job on FO rates, and that could really screw over everyone under the Holdings umbrella very soon. And what really worries me is that it will have a negative effect on the entire industry. We were just starting to see a positive pattern on bargaining with ALA, SWA, and JBU, but now that could take a very bad turn if we see $30/hr Airbus FOs.
 
I certainly don't write them off, but I have serious concerns. The current RAH CBA contains pay rates for "all jets" for FOs. It doesn't stop at 99 seats like the CA rates do. We could easily see Airbus FOs making 50-set RJ wages. Like I said, that's an absolute nightmare. Sowell may have done a good job on scope (that remains to be seen), but he did a horrible job on FO rates, and that could really screw over everyone under the Holdings umbrella very soon. And what really worries me is that it will have a negative effect on the entire industry. We were just starting to see a positive pattern on bargaining with ALA, SWA, and JBU, but now that could take a very bad turn if we see $30/hr Airbus FOs.

I'll tell you what about the FO rates. I'm tired of retyping this over and over and over, so if you want the full explanation you can search it for yourself.

It had to do with J4J agreements, yes with an "S". So, I can tell you and all the other people that talk about FO rates, you don't know why we did what we did. I have explained it ad nausem and am tired of talking to space. So until you really want to understand why those rates are what they were, I'm done. If you want to know, send me a message, or do a search.

Oh, about my famous last words. He tried to sidestep it twice after the contract was signed. Once by floating the idea of buying 49% of a Memphis-based regional that he created.
 
United first year on the bus is $33/hr

Yes, but look at years 2+. Still not great compared to other carriers, but a hell of a lot better than regional rates.

I'll tell you what about the FO rates. I'm tired of retyping this over and over and over, so if you want the full explanation you can search it for yourself.

It had to do with J4J agreements, yes with an "S". So, I can tell you and all the other people that talk about FO rates, you don't know why we did what we did. I have explained it ad nausem and am tired of talking to space. So until you really want to understand why those rates are what they were, I'm done. If you want to know, send me a message, or do a search.

I don't need an explanation, I'm already well aware of why the rates are what they are. I'm not criticizing the rates, I'm criticizing that Sowell wasn't smart enough to put a 99-seat cap on them like he did to the CA rates. The rates are what they are, and that scares me when I think of the possibility of Airbii being flown for RJ wages very soon. Doesn't that concern you? You can admit that it worries you without having to criticize your former coworkers. No need to be defensive.

Oh, about my famous last words. He tried to sidestep it twice after the contract was signed. Once by floating the idea of buying 49% of a Memphis-based regional that he created.

Time will tell.
 
Just from the peanut galleries here, but UALs rates, just like Delta's, USAirways (west AND especially east) and Americans and pretty much every other passenger airline are post-bankruptcy aberrations.

Terrible, awful and not anywhere close to reflective of where they should be. And of course years 2, 3, etc...

HOWEVER, I hope to goodness that Republic's negotiators see UAL's 319/320 rates as a good starting point.

Striving to match another carriers bankruptcy rates is not something to be aimed for.

If management has all that cash to buy another airline and replace another out of MKE, they've got the loot to bring the equipment up to a non-bankruptcy rate like SWA, FDX and UPS.

You can do it.
 
I don't need an explanation, I'm already well aware of why the rates are what they are. I'm not criticizing the rates, I'm criticizing that Sowell wasn't smart enough to put a 99-seat cap on them like he did to the CA rates. The rates are what they are, and that scares me when I think of the possibility of Airbii being flown for RJ wages very soon. Doesn't that concern you? You can admit that it worries you without having to criticize your former coworkers. No need to be defensive.

Good catch on the rates. :beer:
\I guess I screwed up when I didn't notice that.

It'd been a bit since I read that. I thought it'd be covered in the New Aircraft but it's not.

Looks like something else to sew up in the next CBA.

I wonder how it's going. On the other hand, good thing a TA isn't sitting on the table, or a vote just concluded!!!
 
So when Republic repaints all the Airbus and replaces the big FRONTIER billboard letters on the side of the plane with a RUPUBLIC billboard, will they slap a sticker up front by the door that says "operated by Frontier".

Sounds like they will slowly do away with most (if not all) of the Airbus (and F9 employees) save for 5-10 planes and replace them with E170s and E190s flown by cheaper Republic crews.

So sad... What could have been!
 
So when Republic repaints all the Airbus and replaces the big FRONTIER billboard letters on the side of the plane with a RUPUBLIC billboard, will they slap a sticker up front by the door that says "operated by Frontier".

Sounds like they will slowly do away with most (if not all) of the Airbus (and F9 employees) save for 5-10 planes and replace them with E170s and E190s flown by cheaper Republic crews.

So sad... What could have been!

Depends on if he gets a better deal from the leasing company or from Embraer. I suspect he wants to keep the Airbii and negotiate a cheap rate for Republic pilots to fly them.
 
Okay, we're going on and on about RAH's scope clause. I'm betting FRONTIER also has one that protects their pilots. So, in this case, who should be right and who should be wrong? It's gonna wind up in arbitration, I can almost guarantee that much. Scope battles haven't gone well in the recent past (TSA and Pinnacle), so I hope something changes here.

Another thing I was thinking about as I drifted off to sleep last night....when does RAH's United contract expire? I'm betting United is NONE too happy with one of their regional partners buying a hub competitor. Delta's probably not too thrilled, either. Me thinks the new homes for those 175s in the United and Delta ops (and here I'm assuming that due to Republic going off the reservation and buying a direct competitor to the two means their contracts don't get renewed) might be old A320/A319/B717 routes....
 
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