Renters insurance as a requirement.

[Blackhawk]

If you actually read the policy of places that don't require insurance you will find that few if any have no subrogation clauses. Sure, you don't need renters insurance, but if you taxi into something the insurance company will come after you for the cost of the prop and the prop strike inspection ($15k+ for a 172).
Also be aware of what you are covered for verses what you fly. I know of one guy whose coverage was for the 152 he flew as a student pilot. He did a gear up in a V-35- about $80k of damage. His $15k policy left him on the hook for the rest.

 

[killbilly]

If you actually read the policy of places that don't require insurance you will find that few if any have no subrogation clauses. Sure, you don't need renters insurance, but if you taxi into something the insurance company will come after you for the cost of the prop and the prop strike inspection ($15k+ for a 172).
Also be aware of what you are covered for verses what you fly. I know of one guy whose coverage was for the 152 he flew as a student pilot. He did a gear up in a V-35- about $80k of damage. His $15k policy left him on the hook for the rest.

Y'know - you raise a couple of good points here. My hull coverage will definitely cover the costs if I mangle one of the 172-Ps that the FBO I use flies. But it probably wouldn't cover the cost of the Diamond I am getting checked out on. Hmmm. Need to do some research.

Regarding the no-subrogation clause - just as a point of reference, but Aviation Adventures here in the DC area has a no-subrogation clause in their renter's agreements. When I was deciding where to train for my IR, I ran ALL of the numbers to compare, since the FBO I selected (GT Aviation) looked considerably cheaper.

GT requires the hull coverage, AvAd does not. When I crunched all the numbers for myself, the costs were actually within 5% of each other as I recall. What finally made the decision for me was the drive time. VKX is simply much closer to my house, and with fuel prices being as low as they have been, it was a little cheaper both to fly and get out there. (Dry rates there.)

That being said, I'm not flying their training airplanes anymore, and I may return to AvAd for some of my other ratings. Need to look at the programs again relative to complex aircraft, etc. Fuel prices have been creeping back up, too, so when my policy renews in November, it may make sense to switch.

 

[JMK]

Is a subrogation clause an agreement in the contract that allows the owner to come after you for damages? Understanding insurance is a big weak point for me and their terminology makes my head spin. I'm having a hard time trying to figure out who to go with but I did see with Starr, there is a discount if you complete a WINGS program.
https://www.starrlink.com/SAS/PNO/P...5&diu=1476&gb=http://www.aviation-marine.com/

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

hahahahaha well damn probably should have read a lil deeper than that!

I thought he meant renting a living space as well. LOL

 

[DrunkenWoodpecker]

I've never seen a club that had a no-subrogation policy, but that's a good point to look for. There's a club I'm thinking about joining 'round here and that's something I'll ask them about.

That's the difference between good clubs and so-so clubs. Avoid so-so clubs. They will cost more in the long run.

WVFC Aircraft Insurance policy is the following:
1. Complete hull coverage
2. $250k per seat coverage for injuries
3. $2M Liability
4. No subrogation. This means that our insurance cannot subrogate or sue to recover the damages
against our members regarding claims, even involving pilot negligence.
If you are involved in an incident there are two different deductibles:
1. $5000 Pilot error - Examples (taxied into hangar, hard landings, etc.) or,
2. $3500 no pilot error - (Bird strike, acts of God, etc.)

 

[knot4u]

I thought he meant renting a living space as well. LOL

A waterbed quickly reduces your options for renters insurance.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

A waterbed quickly reduces your options for renters insurance.

The ladies love it tho

 

[knot4u]

The ladies love it tho

Some yes, some no. The late 80s/ early 90s were a magical time.

 

[Ian_J]

Found another place and got checked out. First flight in an airplane since 2008 and it didn't go half bad!

 

[Boskru]

I rent from the cessna flight center at Fort Worth Spinks Airport (KFWS) and their insurance is included with the rental costs. They require a 90-day currency flight but that's not too bad. For the handful of times I fly the 172 per year I don't really want to keep my own renters insurance policy.

 

[killbilly]

I just looked into a local flying club and I think it's going to be the way to go for me for a number of reasons.

The club is structured that you are an owner - your fees create an equity stake in the club and aircraft, and you are a named insured on the policy. So, no renter mess, no subrogation issues. This makes the most sense to me.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I just looked into a local flying club and I think it's going to be the way to go for me for a number of reasons.

The club is structured that you are an owner - your fees create an equity stake in the club and aircraft, and you are a named insured on the policy. So, no renter mess, no subrogation issues. This makes the most sense to me.

I actually considered that for the same reasons. Found a good one too, they had a Cardinal and it was a 1/12th share (11 owners, 1 share for sale). But I just got my August schedule yesterday with 95 hrs block. The good thing is it's very productive flying, and that 95 hrs happens in 16 days which still means 15 off for August. But I can't see where I can fit in GA flying. I do miss it, though.

 

[Xcaliber]

It's been a while, so my memory might be sketchy, but I think my old employer back in KC required it but had options available. If you brought your own renters insurance, great. If you didn't fly enough to justify your own policy, you could pay an extra $10/hr and be covered by theirs, and for an additional $5/hr, the FBO would cover the deductible. I thought it was a pretty reasonable policy.

 

[OCK2F]

Not strictly on topic, but does anyone know how common it is for a CFI to be held financially liable for damage on a dual flight? I'm working on my CFI now and the school that I'm training with specifically says in their renter's agreement that any such damage will be split between the CFI and student. Something doesn't sit right with me when a school is happy to take the revenue generated through instruction, but if an aircraft is damaged, they wash their hands of it and it becomes the CFI's financial problem. That, to me, seems like a cost of doing business for the school.

 

[DrunkenWoodpecker]

It sound like a good question for the "ask a lawyer" section. I'm not a lawyer, but spent some time trying to figure out insurance issues. Imho, such agreements could cause problems: suppose that your fault is determined as 10%. Your insurance is going to pay 10% and not a penny more. Now you are on the hook for the remaining 40% by the agreement with the FBO. No insurance is going to honor that 50/50 agreement because all the policies contains language about exclusion of "liability assumed by you". Such agreements are uninsurable, imho.

 

[Blackhawk]

Not strictly on topic, but does anyone know how common it is for a CFI to be held financially liable for damage on a dual flight? I'm working on my CFI now and the school that I'm training with specifically says in their renter's agreement that any such damage will be split between the CFI and student. Something doesn't sit right with me when a school is happy to take the revenue generated through instruction, but if an aircraft is damaged, they wash their hands of it and it becomes the CFI's financial problem. That, to me, seems like a cost of doing business for the school.

It depends on the school, but get CFI insurance. Are you on salary with this school or 1099? Do they give you all the amount they charge for instruction, or do they take a cut? Or do they permit you to charge what you want?

 

[OCK2F]

It depends on the school, but get CFI insurance. Are you on salary with this school or 1099? Do they give you all the amount they charge for instruction, or do they take a cut? Or do they permit you to charge what you want?

I absolutely plan to get CFI insurance, regardless of whether I work for this school or somewhere else. As a renter, I already carry insurance well in excess of what they suggest because I don't trust them. I was just curious as to whether this arrangement was something more commonly seen with smaller schools, or if the bigger ones had similar policies.

As far as how this school is run, the instructors are hourly, and the school sets the rates and takes a cut ($32 out of the $58/hour). This is definitely a question that I'll ask any school that I potentially want to work for, because, as I said, I have a real problem with a school being happy to take the profits, but trying to shift the financial risk to their employee.