Rental insurance?

Ho'k let me try this again with a little bit of background. New job requires MEI. They can't train me in house but company really wants me so I got most of the training paid for so I could start flying quickly.

For the training, There are a total of 4 companies in less than a 3 hour drive of me that has the ability to do the training (aircraft being the issue primarily). Company 1 (who I have a personal relationship with the owner) had me wait 3 months for them to get the aircraft ready to fly (then the owner sold the aircraft out from under them). Company 2 never returned my phone calls (after 8 or 9 of them) then their instructor quit to take a job with the airlines. Company 3 charges 3 times the price of company 4. Company 4 is a small shop that only does multi training but is only 1.5 hours away from me. So I have only one choice that is local. I could go out of state but places like Action multi ratings are booked months in advance. So locally its a sellers market. Going somewhere else isn't a good option either.

The company has only one aircraft. Its a 60 year old aircraft and the company does their own maintenance on it. They had the usual subjugation clause in the rental agreement along with the usual you are responsible for the aircraft when PIC. When I spoke with them about liability they told me of a number of "incidents" with the aircraft that the renter had to pay for. There was a prop strike a short while ago that ended up being a complete engine rebuild. The renter ended up paying out of pocket for the full amount for a engine rebuild. It was something like 16K? It was highly recommended I get insurance to cover the aircraft as they would go after me for the damages as a policy.

So being prudent as I want to keep my bank account where it is I am looking to cover the aircraft in case of a extremely unlikely event. This isn't the sort of thing I want to roll the dice on.

Looking for non owned renters insurance, everyone always turns to Avemco. Avemco pricing is listed here. https://www.avemco.com/cfinonowned/rates.aspx

As suggested earlier I went on Barnstormers and controller.com to get an idea of the replacement cost of the aircraft to figure out a policy limit. Looks like the aircraft can safely be replaced for 100K.

According to Avemco quotes for 100K in aircraft damage liability limits and annual rates (which to my understanding would be what I need for "Hull" insurance) a year policy for a 100K of aircraft damage is $1,575.

Seems to be steep for something I only need for an hour and a half. But I would rather pay $1575 out of pocket than 100K to replace the aircraft.

I MUST have insurance on this aircraft. Period Dot. I am not going to take the risk that we have a (although extremely unlikely) engine failure and have to put it down in a field. Then the full amount of damage on the aircraft is in my hands.

What I am looking for advice on is other options here. Taking the risk and going without insurance isn't an option period. There isn't anyone local to me to complete the training in a timely manner. So going elsewhere isn't a great option either or I would have done that already.

So now that you know the whole story please of great ones enlighten me with your vast knowledge and experience.
 
I'd contact Avemco and ask how much the early termination fee is.

If it is reasonable, like 10% or so ( I honestly have no idea what is reasonable in this instance), get it and then cancel after the checkride.

Also, while yo have them on the line ask about the situation and see what they can offer or recommend.
 
BlueMoon said:
I'd contact Avemco and ask how much the early termination fee is.

If it is reasonable, like 10% or so ( I honestly have no idea what is reasonable in this instance), get it and then cancel after the checkride.

Also, while yo have them on the line ask about the situation and see what they can offer or recommend.
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Yeah, thats my plan. But Avemco is closed on the weekends. Was hoping I might get some different ideas from the fountain of knowledge that is Jet Careers.

$150 is completely reasonable. I have SEL insurance for $95 a year which covers 25K Bodily injury, 205K property and 5K per pax medical.
My helicopter policy (for a piston 4 place) is $450 a year which is enough to cover the full cost of a R44/R22.

So how does a multi engine come to so much more? (just a statement not an actual question)
 
What are you, a magnet to shady opps or what mayne? You in meh he co?

I'm out the training loop these days thank you. Sorry I can't help but there was never talk about student having to pay for insurance... was included in the rent price. Well, if able find a place like that to train out of.
 
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splash said:
What are you, a magnet to shady opps or what mayne? You in meh he co?

I'm out the training loop these days thank you. Sorry I can't help but there was never talk about student having to pay for insurance... was included in the rent price. Well, if able find a place like that to train out of.
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What language are you speaking?
 
Acrofox, post: 2582698, member: 19294"]What language are you speaking?
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flib-a-flab mix! Do you not know flib-a-flab?

meh he co=Mexico
mayne=Man

You know what I think? I think you should come with me in my rocket up to sector 5, I'm not a flib-a-flab teacher where you can find one there but I can lead a horse to water if I believe that horse is thirsty. Want some? We can dance all the way up to our smash with destiny.

 
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I got quoted $100 over the normal trip insurance fee ($25) for 10 hours in the Bahamas for a Seminole, so that number sounds out of this world.

Check the schools rental policy - it sounds like if this is an owner 'borrowed' aircraft vs from a school - are there no alternatives available?

I've always gone with the flight schools rental policy (or additional), never bought my own.

Alex.
 
Well after a call to Avemco. I am told there is no such thing as a single trip policy. The agent I spoke with said they have never sold one in the 25 years she has been there.

I can terminate the plan early but Avemco would still get to keep 50% of the policy amount. So with a plan that covers 100K of hull it would still cost me over $800. I was reading the rate table wrong as well. Standard Bodily injury and property is additional to the hull. So add another $160 to the $1575 I already mentioned.

So I can cancel the policy after my check ride but will still end up paying over $800 for the one trip.
 
Go to traverse city - you'll get MEI cheaper than the quote.

Even amerIcan flyers wasn't bad in the C-310.
 
Or just...don't get insurance like 99% of us once a year renters. Statistically if you wreak it you'll be dead anyway so whats the point.
 
The point would be the prop strike. I don't buy non owner at full hull cost, just 25K to cover repair bills. But like the above post said, if it is more than that I'l prolly dead... oh well.

If it was an engine failure and you didn't run it out of gas, how could you be held liable? I would think you are only at risk for your errors, not their airplane falling apart around you.
 
frankgh said:
If it was an engine failure and you didn't run it out of gas, how could you be held liable? I would think you are only at risk for your errors, not their airplane falling apart around you.
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That's a great question. I don't know the answer to it. What I do know is that there have been a number of incidents with the aircraft and some expensive repairs made to it. My instructor has a great reputation for teaching what he does. However, without going into detail, its pretty clear there are some corners cut where I would feel better not being exposed to a considerable financial liability should something go wrong. While an engine dying on me on the check ride most likely will not be my fault, if I can't safely land the aircraft and do further damage I could be found liable. Secondly while I may not be the one at fault it may cost a considerable amount in legal fees to find that out. And contrary to belief you can not always recover your legal fees in court if you win.

I am the type of person that they would go after for the costs. I am not a 1% but I am not a starving student either.
 
T/O w/FSII said:
Or just...don't get insurance like 99% of us once a year renters. Statistically if you wreak it you'll be dead anyway so whats the point.
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Whoever you rent from (i.e. Schools) holds insurance for training/check rides etc. Even flying clubs get good rates. Being an owner for a day sounds pretty fishy.
 
ahw01 said:
Whoever you rent from (i.e. Schools) holds insurance for training/check rides etc. Even flying clubs get good rates. Being an owner for a day sounds pretty fishy.
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Good grief. NO, lots of schools self insure. You just may not have either known that or have been lucky enough to avoid schools like that. But its very common in the industry.
 
Well I've only used two main ones in Phoenix/Ft Lauderdale.

Westwind maintains hull (aircraft) and liability insurance on all rental aircraft. If aircraft
damage is noted during the preflight inspection, report it immediately to Westwind front
desk personnel. If an aircraft is damaged during your flight, report it to the front desk
personnel immediately upon landing. Our policy extends $1,000,000 of liability coverage to
our renters and their passengers with a sub-limit of $250,000 per person. Our policy
covers all aircraft damage excluding a $2,500 deductible, which must be paid by the renter
pilot, should damage occur to the aircraft while being operated by the renter pilot. The
renter may be held liable over and above the $2,500 deductible if the damage is found to
be caused by a violation of any Federal Aviation Regulation or Westwind Rental Policy
published in this manual. Questions on our policy or additional coverage may be obtained
by contacting our insurance carrier: Falcon Insurance Agency of Arizona, P.O. Box 13503,
Scottsdale, AZ 85267, 480-483-0733. Additional renter’s coverage may be obtained
through AOPA at a nominal charge.
 
This is a strange situation. They say there is no insurance on the aircraft, but then tell you there is a subrogation clause? How would that be possible?

The very CONCEPT of subrogation means that the company that insures the airplane will go after you to recover any loss they pay, because the flight school is the insured, not necessarily the renter, or a renter's policy doesn't cover everything. Doesn't mean they'll WIN - it just means that they'll try. This is the reason that one of the places I sometimes rent from requires hull coverage on the renter's policy. I don't *like* the policy and I don't rent airplanes from them anymore, but that's what they require.

So - if they don't have ANY insurance on the airplane (I think you mentioned that originally) then the only way they could recoup a loss would be to directly come after you for any loss - which means they're out of pocket for legal fees and things like that. And it's a hell of a lot more expensive than insurance - which means that just doesn't make sense to me.

I suspect what they have is minimal coverage, and they just want you to have the rental policy with hull coverage, much like the FBO that I don't use in MD. No other scenario makes sense, unless they're just complete idiots.

So - if you spend the $1575 with Avemco and then cancel it, you'll get back 50% of the policy - they'll keep the policy in force (and half your premium) for six months. Yuo have to cancel writing, by the way - there's a form they will email you to send, sign and fax back.

At 275TT, instrument current, PPL, a renter's policy WITH hull coverage of about $60K costs me around $550 from Avemco, so $1575 for low time in a complex twin doesn't quite strain credulity in my book. It's close, though.

Personally, faced with THIS particular situation, I'd consider going someplace else. That $1500 you might spend could buy you travel and lodging some place reputable with a better airplane and perhaps better instruction? Dunno.

One other thing - you said the training was getting paid for. This may be the cost of doing business for them. Something else - if this is in furtherance of the company, then wouldn't the employer's policy cover you since you're acting as an employee for them in training?
 
Going somewhere else isn't an option. I've looked into a couple of places not local to me and they are already booked months in advance. Earliest date I heard was roughly three months out. I've already wasted my time waiting for one local company to get their aircraft operational. I got a sweet deal from a local company to be their first multi student but It took 3 months waiting for them to get an engine repaired when the owner sold the aircraft out from under them. I've contacted a couple of companies out of state but besides being booked, when you add in the cost of travel, hotels and rental cars to the total I will end up paying more for the rating than doing it here at home.

Secondly I am not an employee of the company I just got some help paying for the rating. No where did they say I was hired or guaranteed the job. The company doesn't even have the job yet. Its a contract they are bidding on and I just happen to be the best candidate for a number of reasons.

Third, they paid the money directly to the school so I couldn't move the money even if I wanted to.

Don't take my word for it on the cost. Here is the link directly to the rate table for Avemco. https://www.avemco.com/aircraft-renters-insurance/cost-quote-rates.aspx

Take the first table (Standard BI and PD) and add it to the second table (Aircraft Damage Liability Limits) and you get the total which is $1720 plus an additional amount for taxes and fees which I didn't get a straight answer on.

Its looking like worst case this is going to cost me somewhere between $800-$900 to insure the aircraft for a little over an hour. I'll get a better piece of mind when taking the check ride if I am covered for this.

Mainly my concern arises out of how this is presented at the FBO. There are a number of "Trophys" hanging on the wall showing damage to the airplane and the cost associated with it. One in particular is a prop with a small chunk out of it with the number $41,000 on it.
 
It sounds like you're making a mountain out of a molehill. All I see are reasons to not do business there.

You're in a remote location, limited options of aircraft, must purchase your own insurance, etc... How many obstacles do you want to jump over for this unnecessary rating? How many reasons do you need before deciding to not utilize this operation?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Clearly reading comprehension is an issue for some of our regular readers.

Look as I said, This is the company I am going with. I am not going to change horses in the middle of a race. Its a time sensitive issue and one that will be completed in a week or so. And is most definitely a necessary rating with a job waiting. The instructor is very respected and well known. The aircraft is airworthy and legal. There are some questionable things but no more so than any other place I have rented from. It is entirely appropriate for me to want insurance on the aircraft in case I have an issue with the aircraft. I would have the same concerns anywhere else I would rent an aircraft from.

I have a insurance policy that covers me for both my SEL flights and my helicopter flights. However I fly those flights regularly and in all cases the FBO has insurance. I just need to cover the potential deductible.

The difference here is the airplane does not have insurance. It is "Self Insured" which means the owner does all the repairs. He is an A&P and fully qualified to do the work. This is common in the industry. What I need is temporary insurance for the aircraft damage AKA "hull insurance" as a non owner. It exists, we know it is offered by the largest aviation insurers out there, including Avemco. However it is expensive.

I am looking for suggestions for cheaper options for insurance (which I have been provided some examples) and other potential solutions to the delima of not wanting to have a financial risk should something go wrong. I would have the same issue at any of the suggested providers just in those cases I would only be on the hook for the deductible rather than the whole aircraft.

In any case, hey thank you to those of you who took the time to read and understand my original post and provided valuable suggestions. I've reached out to those insurance companies and they are looking into solutions for me.
 
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