Reno tower taking a cat nap

boondr said:
Believe me our situation is by no means ideal but staying awake is not that hard. This is coming from both countless mids as a controller and countless 24 hr "duty" assignments as a Marine. I think our schedules and staffing need vast improvement but staying awake when we need to is not a superhuman feat. This isn't people "micro-sleeping" we are hearing about this is people falling asleep so deep they can't hear numerous radio and phone calls. That takes a certain level of "Oh it be alright if I just rest my eyes and sleep for a bit" mentality. Sorry we (controllers) get paid a decent amount of money this is one of the reasons. I think the scheduling of single man mids is asinine but falling asleep is inexcusable unless medical reasons are involved.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what the ATA, FAA and all of our companies say about our sleep schedules.

It's complete and utter horse crap, and now that these rules have gotten a handful of people killed, the rules are finally changing. Every answer that modern sleep science has provided us is in absolute, 100%, complete contradiction to what you're saying.
 
jtrain609 said:
This is exactly what the ATA, FAA and all of our companies say about our sleep schedules.

It's complete and utter horse crap, and now that these rules have gotten a handful of people killed, the rules are finally changing. Every answer that modern sleep science has provided us is in absolute, 100%, complete contradiction to what you're saying.
Click to expand...

So our schedules and staffing don't need any improvement?
 
boondr said:
So our schedules and staffing don't need any improvement?
Click to expand...

No they do need improvement. Saying that you just need to find a way to stay awake is complete and utter nonsense. If your body is tired enough, it WILL go to sleep whether you want it to or not, and the schedules you're describing don't allow for a normal sleep schedule.
 
jtrain609 said:
No they do need improvement. Saying that you just need to find a way to stay awake is complete and utter nonsense. If your body is tired enough, it WILL go to sleep whether you want it to or not, and the schedules you're describing don't allow for a normal sleep schedule.
Click to expand...

So it isn't a "absolute, 100%, complete contradiction to what [I was] saying? Try to cut down the hyperbole a bit.

On to the point, I see what your saying and know the studies show it is dangerous, that is why I think change is needed, however it is not a superhuman feat to stay awake regardless of the hyperbole you come up with. I have had some rough mids where I stood up the whole time to stay alert, with our jobs a "normal" sleep schedule is not possible. That is why we advocate multi-person mids, for contingency. With the 24 hr nature of our work, the sleep is not even close to ideal but going to sleep at work is something that is facilitated by the person who is doing it. Your story as a pilot may be different without an ability to remain on your feet or similar activity but as a controller there is an ability the remain awake if the desire is there.
 
maybe im not getting this (my ex was a controller at a level 7 tower). But what I have seen is controllers work an 8 hour shift, 5 days per week. I dont know the time off requirements between shifts. Boondr, maybe you can enlighten us? I still say that working an 8 hour shift without falling asleep shouldnt be that hard!
 
dasleben said:
Falling asleep on redeye transcons? Sheesh, tell these nancies to man up. :)

I'm not a fancy-ass controller like boondr, but I do some pretty jacked up schedules too, and even manage to stay awake!
Click to expand...

Oh man, the low rumble of the 757 engines on a transcon is just like perfect white noise for a *yawwwwwn* zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Skipper doesn't brief "don't let me wake up and catch you reading" for no reason now!
 
TripSix said:
The last three days of a work week are something like this: 2PM - 10 PM, 7AM - 3PM, 11PM (same day) to 7 AM - the mid.
Click to expand...
wouldn't it be easier on the controllers to just have them do, say, a whole week of mids instead of 8 on, 8 off, 8 on, etc? While working overnight sucks the big one no matter how you swing it ( been there done that and probably will again) at least there would be a consistent sleep schedule. Changing someone's day/night rhythm multiple times in a week seems kind of asinine especially when there's not really any reason for it-at least not that I see. Maybe someone can point out why they are scheduled that way.
 
Roger said:
wouldn't it be easier on the controllers to just have them do, say, a whole week of mids instead of 8 on, 8 off, 8 on, etc? While working overnight sucks the big one no matter how you swing it ( been there done that and probably will again) at least there would be a consistent sleep schedule. Changing someone's day/night rhythm multiple times in a week seems kind of asinine especially when there's not really any reason for it-at least not that I see. Maybe someone can point out why they are scheduled that way.
Click to expand...

You would think so. Although, I do know of one facility that does this. Most don't though.
 
SIUav8er said:
maybe im not getting this (my ex was a controller at a level 7 tower). But what I have seen is controllers work an 8 hour shift, 5 days per week. I dont know the time off requirements between shifts. Boondr, maybe you can enlighten us? I still say that working an 8 hour shift without falling asleep shouldnt be that hard!
Click to expand...

You don't see how this:
TripSix said:
2PM - 10 PM, 7AM - 3PM, 11PM (same day) to 7 AM
Click to expand...
could be troublesome?
 
yeah, i do actually. i was more or less wondering if there is a policy regarding rest or time off between shifts. Didnt you guys just get a new contract last year? why didnt NATCA work some sort of rest time requirement between shifts into the contract? Now I'm curious!
 
boondr said:
I work the same double quick-turn to mids ( mine has a 6-2 and 10-6 though), I didn't say it was easy and mids are mids. There have been quite a few times when I have been "shut out" for 2-3hrs at a time. I'll say again It isn't easy but it also isn't hard to stay awake.
Click to expand...

I'm of the same opinion of you, was just looking at it from back in the day when I've worked those single person mids where seven hours go by and you talk to one plane. A radio or a book without the threat of being fired Would've been a hell of a lot more helpful than a second person.

But oh...the danger in that!!!!
 
SIUav8er said:
yeah, i do actually. i was more or less wondering if there is a policy regarding rest or time off between shifts. Didnt you guys just get a new contract last year? why didnt NATCA work some sort of rest time requirement between shifts into the contract? Now I'm curious!
Click to expand...
Here you go:
Sec. 65.47

Maximum hours.

Except in an emergency, a certificated air traffic control tower operator must be relieved of all duties for at least 24 consecutive hours at least once during each 7 consecutive days. Such an operator may not serve or be required to serve --
(a) For more than 10 consecutive hours; or
(b) For more than 10 hours during a period of 24 consecutive hours, unless he has had a rest period of at least 8 hours at or before the end of the 10 hours of duty
Click to expand...
 
Doug Taylor said:
Oh man, the low rumble of the 757 engines on a transcon is just like perfect white noise for a *yawwwwwn* zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Skipper doesn't brief "don't let me wake up and catch you reading" for no reason now!
Click to expand...

Weeeell truth be told, the domestic segments are the ones that kick my ass. :)
 
Seriously when people stop dying from fatigue let me know... Until then have fun superhumans. I will continue to address the situation realistically with controlled napping. 20 minutes does wonders.
 
BigWaveDave said:
Seriously when people stop dying from fatigue let me know... Until then have fun superhumans. I will continue to address the situation realistically with controlled napping. 20 minutes does wonders.
Click to expand...

I'm certainly not saying flight time/duty rules don't need to be changed. They absolutely do. However, I constantly run into guys who rage about fatigue when they're flying in the middle of the day on 10-12 hours of duty, crossing 2 time zones. I'm not saying that I'm some long-haul master or anything, but something I've learned the past couple months of really whacked out schedules is that your body is capable of handling more than you think without completely shutting down. Again, not saying it's right or that it doesn't need to be changed...just stating the truth.
 
Roger said:
wouldn't it be easier on the controllers to just have them do, say, a whole week of mids instead of 8 on, 8 off, 8 on, etc? While working overnight sucks the big one no matter how you swing it ( been there done that and probably will again) at least there would be a consistent sleep schedule. Changing someone's day/night rhythm multiple times in a week seems kind of asinine especially when there's not really any reason for it-at least not that I see. Maybe someone can point out why they are scheduled that way.
Click to expand...

I believe many facilities used to operate this way, but some study found that this was actually worse. A person's circadian rhythm would finally adapt to the schedule at the end of the week, then the schedule would change again.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top