Removal of 'Circling approach - VMC only' restriction on ATP

z987k said:
Well we certainly do full mins circles in real life. I can't imagine an operator not doing so, and being able to keep a straight face with a customer.
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I dunno. As leery as I am to remove options, circling in less than 1000-3 isn't a great idea for 121 operations unless no other viable alternatives exist.

Without arguing over whose Johnson is bigger, circling at minimums in a large multi engine airplane, while possible, doesn't strike me as a genius idea if you can avoid it (through, say, RNAV RNP or what have you). The risk of spatial disorientation that leads to loss of control (amongst other risks) is usually not worth taking in a normal, scheduled passenger carrying operation.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
I dunno. As leery as I am to remove options, circling in less than 1000-3 isn't a great idea for 121 operations unless no other viable alternatives exist.

Without arguing over whose Johnson is bigger, circling at minimums in a large multi engine airplane, while possible, doesn't strike me as a genius idea if you can avoid it (through, say, RNAV RNP or what have you). The risk of spatial disorientation that leads to loss of control (amongst other risks) is usually not worth taking in a normal, scheduled passenger carrying operation.
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I'd be inclined to agree, but it's certainly not something I'd want on my ATP. Type, ya sure whatever.
 
z987k said:
Well we certainly do full mins circles in real life. I can't imagine an operator not doing so, and being able to keep a straight face with a customer.
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I've flown 91k corpo, I would say about 2 of the owners I ever flew, knew what a circling approach was, and those 2 knew the inherent dangers of circling in MVFR, and didn't want to attempt it. So, the one time a year, a circle to the favored runway wouldve helped get us in, I had no problem waiting the extra hour for the weather to improve.
 
7700 said:
I've flown 91k corpo, I would say about 2 of the owners I ever flew, knew what a circling approach was, and those 2 knew the inherent dangers of circling in MVFR, and didn't want to attempt it. So, the one time a year, a circle to the favored runway wouldve helped get us in, I had no problem waiting the extra hour for the weather to improve.
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So I guess circling only approaches are basically closed airports unless it's more than VFR?
What about specials? Are those instant death?
 
z987k said:
So I guess circling only approaches are basically closed airports unless it's more than VFR?
What about specials? Are those instant death?
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Whether someone chooses to circle or not is up to them, and I'd expect AK guys who are used to scud running and Speicals would see them as no big deal, but there's no shortage of accident data showing the risk is much much higher... so I see no reason to second guess someone who decides against them?
 
rframe said:
Whether someone chooses to circle or not is up to them, and I'd expect AK guys who are used to scud running and Speicals would see them as no big deal, but there's no shortage of accident data showing the risk is much much higher... so I see no reason to second guess someone who decides against them?
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I understand it in a 121 world and even 135 jets where you go from one airport with an ILS to another. But if you do more than that... well I consider it something that as a professional pilot, you should be able to do safely. Just like everything else on a standard checkride.
Oh and we don't scud run anything. IFR on 95% of flights, even the destination doesn't have an approach.

Autothrust Blue, I know you guys go into KOTH. The VOR/DME-B is comonly advertised because the ILS would give you a bazilion knot tailwind some days. So what are your mins on that approach, not the ~800-1 on the plate(which is super fun to buzz that bridge)? It's pretty much straight in for 22.
 
z987k said:
Autothrust Blue, I know you guys go into KOTH. The VOR/DME-B is comonly advertised because the ILS would give you a bazilion knot tailwind some days. So what are your mins on that approach, not the ~800-1 on the plate(which is super fun to buzz that bridge)? It's pretty much straight in for 22.
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1000-3.

(Actually not sure, I'd have to dig out the plate - you have to do a supervised entry there as a Captain, none of the LAX guys are qualified.)
 
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