Regional hiring confusion, how to get the foot in the door?

[GypsyPilot]

Are there any other options for you? Part 91 contacts that you've made? I don't want to be a total negative Nancy or get flogged, but dude, you're not missing anything imo by staying out of this zoo. I thought I would dig it, and I thought wrong. To me, it could never compare to a good 91 gig, or even possibly 135 *gasp*. Ever

You might love it though; not that there's anything wrong with that...

I completely understand where TexasFlyer is coming from. I left a full time part 91 job for SkyWest several years ago. It was an extremely tough decision, but my career was stagnating and I felt I should at least give 121 a try. I don't regret it. Also, I'm not sure if you've ever worked 135. I have, and a decent regional is so far beyond that crappy lifestyle it's not even funny. There are certainly some decent 135 gigs, but most are nightmarishly bad.

SkyWest is hiring, and they are interviewing. I just helped an acquaintance out with some prep for his interview next week. My advice though - Pick a place that has a base you are willing to live at. Commuting can make even a good gig crappy.

 

[Hammertime]

It definitely look like you've put some thought and research into this. However, you are (probably unwittingly) contradicting yourself here:

So Regional looks like the best short term place to meet long term goals.

That said. I ranked the top 10 Regionals by order of choice as follows for my situation:
1. SkyWest
2. Express Jet
3. PSA
4. Compass
5. Air Wisconsin
6. American Eagle
7. Go Jet
8. Pinnacle
9. TSA
10. Republic

Your top five choices are all excellent, but they are long term choices. As of now (which is rapidly changing) your top five all have a 5-10 year upgrade time, so it's going to take you a while to get that twin turbine PIC that you want. Also, you mentioned QOL, and I am assuming that you structured your list with this in mind. The nature of the beast is that you aren't going to find QOL and a quick upgrade time at the same company. Obviously, if people are happy where they are (good QOL) they aren't as likely to leave, so the upgrade time will be higher. Based on my (admittedly minimal 3.5 years) experience in the industry I would recommend rethinking your list with this in mind:

You mentioned in a later post that making a career at a regional may be an option. If so, keep looking at the choices you are looking at. However, if you are looking to round out your resume/logbook with PIC twin turbine as quickly as possible then you may want to rethink things a little. Some of your lower choices are going to offer a much quicker upgrade, so you need to balance that against your financial/QOL needs, because you are not going to get both. (A caveat, if you are looking to fast track to a major, some guys have been hired out of the right seat of a jet. It's rare, and in my opinion, somewhat unfair to some of the captain applicants with command experience, but that's a different discussion.)

Being home based is a QOL gamechanger. If you happen to live in base for ANY carrier, your QOL will be better than commuting to the best carrier on your list. If you are willing to move, then you can do a straight up comparison, but from what you are saying, it sounds like you may be tied down to either San Antonio or Dayton. San Antonio I can't help you with, but I can help with Dayton.

Assuming living in DAY:
I did some quick research on APC, and it looks like PSA has a DAY base (I had no clue). That would move PSA to the top of the list for me. My only concern would be that PSA's future is uncertain given the Airways/American merger (same goes for Air Whisky and Eagle). I don't think they are going away, but they may get stepped on with some sort of concessionary contract. They may also turn out great, but it's hard to know.
Normally, I'd not only agree with you about Republic, but I'd tell you to stay away. I've heard enough mixed reviews that it sounds like commuting to reserve for them would REALLY suck. However, all of their subsidiaries have bases in CMH, which will be an easy driving commute for you. With them, I'd just make absolutely sure that you know the equipment and base you are being hired into before you commit.
ExpressJet would be a great third choice, and they have bases all over, and their work rules should make them easy to commute to. With DAY in mind, CLE should be an easy drive/fly commute, and ORD would be a good second choice. After those three, your pick is as good as mine. I would definitely avoid anything that's going to force you into a 2 leg commute (passrider.com is good for research). SkyWest is more focused out west, so San Antonio may bring them into play.

Ok, that book over, I'm going to do a little advertising for a carrier not on your list. Assuming living in Dayton, have you looked at CommutAir at all? We have better work rules than Republic (Cancellation pay, leg by leg block or better, better reserve rules), and roughly equivalent pay scales*, but our upgrade time is 18-24 months. We have a number of guys that commute from Dayton to CLE using a mix of driving and flying, and I've heard no complaints. It's a small company with very much a family atmosphere, and the union has a good working relationship with management (huge difference from Republic). The company is very stable, run in a conservative fashion, and the Dash 8 is so cheap to operate that I don't see any of our flying going anywhere soon. So, again, it depends on what you want, but if your primary goal is to round out your resume/logbook quickly and move on, I'd definitely take a good look at CommutAir.

*First year FO pay is the same. A second year FO at Republic will make more, but a second year FO a CommutAir will most likely upgrade sometime in his or her second year, and will be making Captain pay, which is considerably more than FO pay at Republic.

 

[TexasFlyer]

Why do you want to work at Skywest if you want to live in SAT or DAY?

Work rules are good overall. And work rules allow the best commute long term. And the long term stability projection when compared to other Regionals.

It appears stability can make or break a career. It must be awful to be a 4 year FO at Regional 1 and then get furlough so you now start at Regional 2 as a new FO. So my own stability analysis comes into play in my rankings along with work rules that result in an overall QOL.

 

[jtrain609]

Work rules are good overall. And work rules allow the best commute long term. And the long term stability projection when compared to other Regionals.

It appears stability can make or break a career. It must be awful to be a 4 year FO at Regional 1 and then get furlough so you now start at Regional 2 as a new FO. So my own stability analysis comes into play in my rankings along with work rules that result in an overall QOL.

A word of warning; a hellish commute is not trumped by good work rules. Ever.

ExpressJet has 3,000 pilots with 1,000 of them based in Houston. Skywest has 3,000 pilots with a few hundred, at most, based in Houston.

 

[TexasFlyer]

Hammertime. Thanks for the great write up! Good info there.

As far as quick upgrade, I did not take that into consideration. The reason is, I am looking at a Regional as a potential career choice since I am 40 years old (career changer here). So with under 25 years left in my Part 121 flying career that I am yet to start, a major in my future is possibly a pipe dream. So I am trying to keep it real based on my age.

And I can eventually move to any base I am given. Just not at the present time. I own a home in San Antonio, which keeps me stuck here. It's like an anchor. But eventually when house prices rise enough I can hopefully pull up the anchor by selling the house. Problem is, it may be 3-5 year out before I recover on the house! So I am stuck in San Antonio as my own personal place to live. And renting our the house is not an option. Had a bad experience with that before. Luckily, the home cost me under $600 a month (I have a room rented out and he pays half everything) so it is not too painful an anchor as I have very little other bills.

So that explains SAT as my home. Why DAY. My parents live there. So I could use their place as an easy crash pad. I could hear it now. "Oh great. Welcome home son. Your a professional pilot at 40 years old and you need to live here." "Yes dad. I'll mow the lawn and all will be better." But this is why PSA (DAY) ranks so high along with Express Jet (IAH). Work rules and long term stability ranked the others where they are based on my own analysis. Which can be flawed since I am not in the industry. And the internet research is tough to read through sometime since it is full of negative and not much positive.

 

[TallFlyer]

You may want to get a quality realtor to reevaluate when might be a good time to sell the house, and also take into account the extra costs of commuting, the additional risk you incur by having an asset that could down the road need additional repairs, and the intangible benefit of just being free of the thing if you're trying to be mobile for an airline career.

 

[Cal Goat]

Commuting to reserve will test your love for this career. I live in the SF bay area and have been commuting to reserve at LAX for 6 months. That's got to be one of the easiest commutes ever, but still, it wears on me. Definitely aim for the company that will minimize or completely negate your necessity to commute since you will almost certainly be on reserve for a while.

 

[TexasFlyer]

Thanks for the help in evaluating my decision everyone.

Based on this info I have a new interesting ranking. I took the new knowledge and re-evaluated the list as commute became more a priority. Seems quite a few are now tied for 3 and 5 position! Fingers crossed I end up at 1 or 2.

1. Express Jet
2. PSA
3. SkyWest, Compass, Air Wisconsin
4. American Eagle
5. Go Jet, Pinnacle, Piedmont, Republic, Trans States

 

[Screaming_Emu]

It's kinda funny but I have friends at 2, 3 and 6 who regret not going with me to 10. All of them are still on reserve hating life. Yes they have better work rules but since I held a line right away I was able to out do them on pay by a significant amount during the first year pay while having 4-5 extra days off a month and much shorter duty days due to the longer average flights.

That might be the case now, but say next year they introduce age 70. Everything stagnates for another 5 years things will be the opposite. This whole thing is a crapshoot. If you chase a base, quick seniority bump, etc it might work out in the short term. Maybe even the long term. But if things get stagnant you're gonna have a bad time. Go for stability, pay, and QOL. That can all change in an instant, but not as frequently as bases and upgrade time.

Are there any other options for you? Part 91 contacts that you've made? I don't want to be a total negative Nancy or get flogged, but dude, you're not missing anything imo by staying out of this zoo. I thought I would dig it, and I thought wrong. To me, it could never compare to a good 91 gig, or even possibly 135 *gasp*. Ever

You might love it though; not that there's anything wrong with that...

Different strokes for different folks. I just had a conversation with a friend of mine from high school who is "working on a project" that he's pretty sure is going to make him independently wealthy by the end of the year. Was talking about turning it into a business, needing a fleet of planes, etc. Not sure if he's dreaming or not, but he was talking about whether I'd be interested in something along the lines of a fleet manager/chief pilot job. I suppose everybody has their price, but I have to say its not appealing to me AT ALL. Sitting behind a desk, keeping track of maintenance, fuel costs, catering, etc. Flying corporately is a bit different, but there's still a lot of stuff that I don't care to deal with. Lots of on call time, flexible schedules, working with the same people all the time, etc.

As far as I'm concerned, if you simply enjoy flying airplanes, enjoy travel, but don't have the need to define yourself by your profession, part 121 is the place to be. Let me walk you through a trip in the life of a 121 pilot:

I show up on day one. My boss doesn't recognize my name. I duty in on a computer, look around the crew lounge to see if there's anybody I know hanging out. I see my crew, but they don't recognize me. I save the introduction until I run into them at the airplane. I'll be sitting in a closet sized room with one of these guys for most of the next 3-4 days, don't want to run out of things to talk about already. I print out the paperwork and head out to grab a cup of coffee on the way to the plane. If you're at a small base, you've probably run into a few of your friends that you enjoy working with. Catch up, finally mosey over to the airplane. Someone else has already planned the flight for you. Go go through the 7-15 pages of paper to make sure everything looks reasonable. Route, weather, notams, fuel, etc. Stick it into the computer, run a checklist or two, wait on the self loading cargo. Take off, fly to the destination. Maybe repeat it a few times each day. Pull into the overnight. If you're meshing with the crew particularly well you have the option of meeting them for dinner. If not its pretty easy to throw out a "hey guys, I'm beat. See you in the morning." Repeat for each day the rest of the trip. Last leg you pull into the gate, watch the people get off the plane, grab your stuff and go home. If you enjoyed working with that crew, you can bid to work with them again. If the captain was an ass hat, you probably will only have to see him in passing in the crew lounge. Go home, turn off your phone if you want, and you can almost completely forget that you even HAVE a job for the next few days. It is virtually impossible to take this job home with you. Go home and do what makes you REALLY happy. Then come back to work and do it again.

There are a lot of things about 121 that are less than desirable, especially at the regional level. But there really are a lot of positives that it is easy to overlook after you've been doing it for a while. The job itself is the best part. The negatives are usually a few of the things that come along with it, many of which can be avoided by ending up at a company wit some semblance of competency.

 

[TexasFlyer]

Great post Emu. Finally someone who made the job sound like one I would love to have.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Great post Emu. Finally someone who made the job sound like one I would love to have.

Glad to hear it!

Again, its not perfect. Operationally, you just need to adapt a zen like state of not giving a crap about things you can't control. You'll try to control them, realize the end result is the same, and have a very difficult time wrapping your head around why things are as messed up as they are. But if you don't get too worked up about that (I'm talking to you ERJ guys coming through Dulles), its not too bad.

Things like calling for fuel/catering/lav service and it not showing up. The gate agent coming down to ask you if you are ready to board on three separate occasions...even though you called 15 minutes ago to say you were ready. Hitting turbulence bad enough that there is soda on the ceiling, walls, and seats, but when you call to have it cleaned up "oh, the cleaners go home at 4." Stuff like that can drive you nuts. But once you realize you aren't going to change it and just go with the flow...life is good...mostly.

Most of my job satisfaction doesn't come from flying airplanes, though that can be pretty awesome. It comes from months like the one I had last month. 87 hours of pay. 17 days off.

Its just hard to top that. It does take a while to get there. But any month I can be off work for more than half of the month, is pretty damn spectacular.

 

[zmiller4]

A word of warning; a hellish commute is not trumped by good work rules. Ever.

This is absolutely true. To make decisions on where to go and live more difficult, a good commute can turn into a hellish commute quickly due to things totally out of your--or even your airline's--control (another company closes a base, flights dropped, schedules changing, mainline switching the regional that's operating a leg).

ExpressJet has 3,000 pilots with 1,000 of them based in Houston. Skywest has 3,000 pilots with a few hundred, at most, based in Houston.

True, but also consider the relative seniority of the base...new hires were getting Houston and getting out as quickly as they could when I was at Skywest. I don't know how quickly guys were getting lines at Expressjet, but I had thought it was a more senior base.

 

[jtrain609]

This is absolutely true. To make decisions on where to go and live more difficult, a good commute can turn into a hellish commute quickly due to things totally out of your--or even your airline's--control (another company closes a base, flights dropped, schedules changing, mainline switching the regional that's operating a leg).



True, but also consider the relative seniority of the base...new hires were getting Houston and getting out as quickly as they could when I was at Skywest. I don't know how quickly guys were getting lines at Expressjet, but I had thought it was a more senior base.

Takes a while to get a line, but if you live within driving distance, who cares. I'd happily take sitting reserve at home over min days off as a junior line holding commuter.

 

[Nark]

Again, its not perfect. Operationally, you just need to adapt a zen like state of not giving a crap about things you can't control. You'll try to control them, realize the end result is the same, and have a very difficult time wrapping your head around why things are as messed up as they are. But if you don't get too worked up about that (I'm talking to you ERJ guys coming through Dulles), its not too bad.

This should written over every crew room door.

Coming from a military background it was easy to understand. We are doing X because over there they are doing Y.
The same thing happens at the airlines, but you aren't privy to what Y is doing, doesn't change that you still need to do X.

Here's my advice:
Go to all the interviews. Make a list of all that give you a job offer. Then rehash this thread.

 

[TexasFlyer]

Here's my advice:
Go to all the interviews. Make a list of all that give you a job offer. Then rehash this thread.

Good advice. After all. I have no decision to make until offer in hand.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Takes a while to get a line, but if you live within driving distance, who cares. I'd happily take sitting reserve at home over min days off as a junior line holding commuter.

Reserve at home WITH min days off is still better than commuting. (for the record.)

I have yet to work at an airline that constructs reserve lines with more than minimum contractual days off.

 

[Jet]

That might be the case now, but say next year they introduce age 70. Everything stagnates for another 5 years things will be the opposite. This whole thing is a crapshoot. If you chase a base, quick seniority bump, etc it might work out in the short term. Maybe even the long term. But if things get stagnant you're gonna have a bad time. Go for stability, pay, and QOL. That can all change in an instant, but not as frequently as bases and upgrade time.



Different strokes for different folks. I just had a conversation with a friend of mine from high school who is "working on a project" that he's pretty sure is going to make him independently wealthy by the end of the year. Was talking about turning it into a business, needing a fleet of planes, etc. Not sure if he's dreaming or not, but he was talking about whether I'd be interested in something along the lines of a fleet manager/chief pilot job. I suppose everybody has their price, but I have to say its not appealing to me AT ALL. Sitting behind a desk, keeping track of maintenance, fuel costs, catering, etc. Flying corporately is a bit different, but there's still a lot of stuff that I don't care to deal with. Lots of on call time, flexible schedules, working with the same people all the time, etc.

As far as I'm concerned, if you simply enjoy flying airplanes, enjoy travel, but don't have the need to define yourself by your profession, part 121 is the place to be. Let me walk you through a trip in the life of a 121 pilot:

I show up on day one. My boss doesn't recognize my name. I duty in on a computer, look around the crew lounge to see if there's anybody I know hanging out. I see my crew, but they don't recognize me. I save the introduction until I run into them at the airplane. I'll be sitting in a closet sized room with one of these guys for most of the next 3-4 days, don't want to run out of things to talk about already. I print out the paperwork and head out to grab a cup of coffee on the way to the plane. If you're at a small base, you've probably run into a few of your friends that you enjoy working with. Catch up, finally mosey over to the airplane. Someone else has already planned the flight for you. Go go through the 7-15 pages of paper to make sure everything looks reasonable. Route, weather, notams, fuel, etc. Stick it into the computer, run a checklist or two, wait on the self loading cargo. Take off, fly to the destination. Maybe repeat it a few times each day. Pull into the overnight. If you're meshing with the crew particularly well you have the option of meeting them for dinner. If not its pretty easy to throw out a "hey guys, I'm beat. See you in the morning." Repeat for each day the rest of the trip. Last leg you pull into the gate, watch the people get off the plane, grab your stuff and go home. If you enjoyed working with that crew, you can bid to work with them again. If the captain was an ass hat, you probably will only have to see him in passing in the crew lounge. Go home, turn off your phone if you want, and you can almost completely forget that you even HAVE a job for the next few days. It is virtually impossible to take this job home with you. Go home and do what makes you REALLY happy. Then come back to work and do it again.

There are a lot of things about 121 that are less than desirable, especially at the regional level. But there really are a lot of positives that it is easy to overlook after you've been doing it for a while. The job itself is the best part. The negatives are usually a few of the things that come along with it, many of which can be avoided by ending up at a company wit some semblance of competency.

I guess everybody has a different definition of QOL. I wouldn't want to get stuck doing 6-8 legs a day for a decade but that's just me. I enjoy having my 3 LPD average and more job stability. I got hired by one of the best regionals out there and was furloughed from them so you just never know.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I guess everybody has a different definition of QOL. I wouldn't want to get stuck doing 6-8 legs a day for a decade but that's just me. I enjoy having my 3 LPD average and more job stability. I got hired by one of the best regionals out there and was furloughed from them so you just never know.

On the other hand, I have a sea-level cabin all day.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I guess everybody has a different definition of QOL. I wouldn't want to get stuck doing 6-8 legs a day for a decade but that's just me. I enjoy having my 3 LPD average and more job stability. I got hired by one of the best regionals out there and was furloughed from them so you just never know.

Good points.

Legs per day are pretty far down my list of QOL related items. When I show up for work I want to work a lot so that I can get more days off. I want to know my schedule in advance and get paid when it gets screwed with (cancellation/extension pay).

But for the most part my QOL related items have little to do with actual work. Pay, stability, and time off. In that order. I don't care what plane I'm flying. I don't care where I'm going. As long as its legal and I'm well rested I don't care how many times I have to fly. Just work me. Pay me. Then let me go home where the actual quality of my life resides.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Good points.

Legs per day are pretty far down my list of QOL related items. When I show up for work I want to work a lot so that I can get more days off. I want to know my schedule in advance and get paid when it gets screwed with (cancellation/extension pay).

But for the most part my QOL related items have little to do with actual work. Pay, stability, and time off. In that order. I don't care what plane I'm flying. I don't care where I'm going. As long as its legal and I'm well rested I don't care how many times I have to fly. Just work me. Pay me. Then let me go home where the actual quality of my life resides.

That too.

Although you do feel pretty much like snot after an 8-legger, so there's that.