Regional help.

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BobDDuck said:
if you look at the deal they actually got and actually understand the 10 year contract they were able to lock themselves in to, you'd probably want the same thing on whatever property you are at.
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From what I can tell is that they got career gains. The problem is that the same gains will likely be impossible to get for Airlines such as XJT or RAH. They would require massive airframe increases to match PSA growth. They are not owned by a mainline carrier so guaranteed interviews are much much harder to negotiate.

We can not get the items on their contract that made it "non-consessionary" and we still have to compete with their cost structure. That is why it hurts airlines such as RAH and XJT. When another airline sacrifices their contract for career progression the rest of us get hurt.

I really can't see how the PSA contract helps the regional industry from a pilot perspective.

With all of that said, no they will not be stopped from getting hired at a major. Most major pilots seem to have no clue who operates their feed and they especially do not know the feed for other companies. I JSed on US Airways once and was asked if "ExpressJet was that fractional place out of columbus". I highly doubt they care about regional politics.
 
Maurus said:
From what I can tell is that they got career gains. The problem is that the same gains will likely be impossible to get for Airlines such as XJT or RAH. They would require massive airframe increases to match PSA growth. They are not owned by a mainline carrier so guaranteed interviews are much much harder to negotiate.

We can not get the items on their contract that made it "non-consessionary" and we still have to compete with their cost structure. That is why it hurts airlines such as RAH and XJT. When another airline sacrifices their contract for career progression the rest of us get hurt.

I really can't see how the PSA contract helps the regional industry from a pilot perspective.

With all of that said, no they will not be stopped from getting hired at a major. Most major pilots seem to have no clue who operates their feed and they especially do not know the feed for other companies. I JSed on US Airways once and was asked if "ExpressJet was that fractional place out of columbus". I highly doubt they care about regional politics.
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This is not accurate.

It is not contract terms, but instead longevity, that drives cost structure. You could give Compass the old Comair contract, and they'd STILL be worlds cheaper than a place like XJT because their most senior pilot is at something like 6 years of longevity.

It is not what you're paid, but how long your pilots have been at a company, that drives costs. The only thing the PSA contract did in making them more competitive against XJT and RAH is move the senior guys off the list. THAT is where the cost savings were made.
 
jtrain609 said:
This is not accurate.

It is not contract terms, but instead longevity, that drives cost structure. You could give Compass the old Comair contract, and they'd STILL be worlds cheaper than a place like XJT because their most senior pilot is at something like 6 years of longevity.

It is not what you're paid, but how long your pilots have been at a company, that drives costs. The only thing the PSA contract did in making them more competitive against XJT and RAH is move the senior guys off the list. THAT is where the cost savings were made.
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Any way you look at it XJT and RAH can not match that cost structure. As a result the savings management needs will be made via the economic parts of the contract because lopping off the top of the list won't work like at PSA.

XJT and RAH still need to compete against their cost structure regardless of how that cost structure was attained.
 
Maurus said:
Any way you look at it XJT and RAH can not match that cost structure. As a result the savings management needs will be made via the economic parts of the contract because lopping off the top of the list won't work like at PSA.

XJT and RAH still need to compete against their cost structure regardless of how that cost structure was attained.
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You already said it, they can't compete. The result is that they will go out of business.
 
Maurus said:
Most likely yes, PSA is just twisting the knife.
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No they're not. The poor decision making at the management level at XJT was twisting the knife. When Jim Ream made the decision to double down on 50 seat feed and not pursue large RJ flying in 2008, it doomed the place. The internet can make PSA the scapegoat all it wants, but the blame for XJT's demise rests with XJT and now Skywest Inc.
 
jtrain609 said:
No they're not. The poor decision making at the management level at XJT was twisting the knife. When Jim Ream made the decision to double down on 50 seat feed and not pursue large RJ flying in 2008, it doomed the place. The internet can make PSA the scapegoat all it wants, but the blame for XJT's demise rests with XJT and now Skywest Inc.
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I think you just described the actual stabbing. Just saying ;)
 
propsync said:
If possible, try and first figure out which of the 3 airlines under the Republic umbrella is to go. The fact that 1 of the 3 is going is public knowledge, just don't know which one. It's unclear if it will be sold or shuttered.
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I'm curious. How much do you know about one of the 3 companies at RAH going under?
 
This should not be interpreted as a recommendation for RAH, but should you go that route, movement has been faster at Republic than at Shuttle.

That said, as far as upgrades go, it is all one list, so if your priority is faster upgrade time, take the first class offered.
 
Maurus said:
Any way you look at it XJT and RAH can not match that cost structure. As a result the savings management needs will be made via the economic parts of the contract because lopping off the top of the list won't work like at PSA.

XJT and RAH still need to compete against their cost structure regardless of how that cost structure was attained.
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Like JTrain said, it's about longevity, not pay structures or even benefits. By providing an avenue to minimize the company's exposure to high longevity pilots (through movement to Airways) they could assure certain cost savings and as such bid flying at a rate (well, actually as a WO they don't bid, they just say what it's going to cost to operate) that got them 30 (and probably another 30 after that) shiny new jets. Yes, there are a few guys who will will not top out at the same payrate that a guy one number above them will, but the vast majority of those guys have already moved up to mainline or other companies. And yes, there is the risk that the music will stop at mainline if another industry wide disaster strikes, but the basic retirement numbers all but guarantee that there will be continuing movement, upwards at a rate that will keep the longevity very low at PSA. This is the same engine that drove growth at Compass and Mesa and probably (if they ever get their operational issues under control) will provide growth Endeavor.

This is the future of regional airlines. Some companies and pilot groups have figured out a way to get on board and some haven't or can't.
 
BobDDuck said:
Like JTrain said, it's about longevity, not pay structures or even benefits. By providing an avenue to minimize the company's exposure to high longevity pilots (through movement to Airways) they could assure certain cost savings and as such bid flying at a rate (well, actually as a WO they don't bid, they just say what it's going to cost to operate) that got them 30 (and probably another 30 after that) shiny new jets. Yes, there are a few guys who will will not top out at the same payrate that a guy one number above them will, but the vast majority of those guys have already moved up to mainline or other companies. And yes, there is the risk that the music will stop at mainline if another industry wide disaster strikes, but the basic retirement numbers all but guarantee that there will be continuing movement, upwards at a rate that will keep the longevity very low at PSA. This is the same engine that drove growth at Compass and Mesa and probably (if they ever get their operational issues under control) will provide growth Endeavor.

This is the future of regional airlines. Some companies and pilot groups have figured out a way to get on board and some haven't or can't.
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I understand this, but to assume the PSA contract isn't walked into current negotiations for the intent to get concessions is just stupid. There are tons of "independent" regionals going into negotiations that simply can't match the career gains. It seems the PSA contract just adds fuel to Endeavor's bankruptcy contract in negotiations.

The funny thing going is that these perceived gains in the PSA contract could have just been added in as an LOA and would have likely had similar cost saving results without the need to bring down the rest of the contract.
 
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Maurus said:
The funny thing going is that these perceived gains in the PSA contract could have just been added in as an LOA and would have likely had similar cost saving results without the need to bring down the rest of the contract.
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That's exactly what they did. The pilot's got enhanced language for moving up to mainline. The company got a set cost structure they could budget on going forward.

And as a side note, as much as it does suck that the pay structure is locked for the next 10 years (well, 9 now) it should also be noted that the soft time provisions are also locked for the next 9 years. Ask a PSA guy about SAP and "critical coverage" and you'll understand just how much of a win that is to have for 9 years.
 
SAP and Critical Coverage are like Christmas, your birthday, the Easter Bunny and dollar beers all wrapped into one.

Every month I take at least 9 days off in a row. Every month I work at least one critical coverage day and as a result I credit at least 90 hours while working less than guarantee. Except for May. I worked 87 hours in May and credited 119.

Block or better leg by leg. Cancelation pay. Pay protected when displaced. Minimum credit on days you work.

The agreement was a LOA not a contract. The net result of added aircraft brings up the pay rates across the board because it's a blended rate and also pay increases a small percentage for each additional aircraft. I think if you look deeper you'd see some good things beyond the 12 year and 4 year caps.
 
falconvalley said:
Mmhmm. Announced Yesterday. Do you know what that means for potential pilot applicants?
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In the immediate sense nothing as they are all one seniority list. But long term the debate is just getting started. Personally, I don't know how these non-owned carriers are able to compete effectively with the wholly owned cost structure.
 
propsync said:
In the immediate sense nothing as they are all one seniority list. But long term the debate is just getting started. Personally, I don't know how these non-owned carriers are able to compete effectively with the wholly owned cost structure.
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I would agree with that.
 
propsync said:
Just announced. The Chautauqua certificate will go away.
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I would word it they are combining it with Shuttle, but initially there will be very little shocks felt around the system.

This is not a revelation...the entire pilot group knew it was coming.

I work for S5...I commute...thus my QOL is based on how little I complain

I'm desperate looking for 91/135 around Dallas
 
CFIT99 said:
I would word it they are combining it with Shuttle, but initially there will be very little shocks felt around the system.

This is not a revelation...the entire pilot group knew it was coming.

I work for S5...I commute...thus my QOL is based on how little I complain

I'm desperate looking for 91/135 around Dallas
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I met a LGA S5 FO back in January that's was hired to sit left seat in a Citation in the Dallas area. He had no TPIC AfAIK. He was obviously burnt out from commuting. PM me about this if you want...

As for the merger of certs it was more to reduce middle management types (think one less DO, less assistant CPs, crew scheduling, dispatchers, etc). The DL -145 flying seems to be hanging in through 2015 so regardless of the number of certs they still need to staff those plans. After that, I suspect heavy downsizing, maybe even a 7 yr bankruptcy wash... (Which is many years late)

That's why I bailed.
 
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