Regional CA vs LCC FO...

It's always hard to say what's going to be best for your career... I've been pretty terrible at understanding what the legacies are looking for over the years.

But one thing I've always tried to do is challenge myself professionally. Every year or so I try to find something significant to do, such as a new rating, new type, new airport checkouts, etc.

I know TPIC isn't valued that much anymore by the people making hiring decisions at the legacies for whatever reason, but I will say that for myself the 121 CA experience has been without a doubt the best learning experience I've had. Even 1.5 years after my PIC checkride, I'm learning something pretty significant on almost every trip. Without question, my abilities as a pilot have increased dramatically as I accumulate 121 PIC and I know that if/when I move on, this will make me a more valuable part of the crew decision making process.

If you place a lot of value on the piloting "craft", I highly recommend the 121 CA experience. It really does change you, and will increase your confidence and decision making skills.
 
I'm at an ULCC and I would say if you're that close, get the upgrade, 1,000 TPIC and then if you haven't been picked up at a legacy head to an LCC/ULCC. I left Eagle as a 4 1/2 year FO with no upgrade in site and definitely made the right decision. Made almost the same year 1 as a 5 year FO, and now as 2nd year considering I would have been commuting, make nearly as much as if I had stayed and upgraded but with much much better QOL. If I had been close to upgrade it probably would have been different, but not as a long term thing. Talked to a Mesa captain yesterday and he said our second year FO pay equals their 5th year captain pay. Obviously everyones situation is different and you have to decide what works best for you and your family.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Basically yes, worse case IMO. Otherwise I'm pretty happy here.

Edit: Our JFK base includes all three JFK/EWR/LGA as co-domiciled.
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I don't know dude, do you think AS would give up their only potential foothold on the entire east coast? Particularly in such a highly coveted market...

But please, go ahead and move on because I'm fairly certain you'll end up above me after the integration since you've been at Virgin a few years now. :D
 
Sled14 said:
I'm at an ULCC and I would say if you're that close, get the upgrade, 1,000 TPIC and then if you haven't been picked up at a legacy head to an LCC/ULCC. I left Eagle as a 4 1/2 year FO with no upgrade in site and definitely made the right decision. Made almost the same year 1 as a 5 year FO, and now as 2nd year considering I would have been commuting, make nearly as much as if I had stayed and upgraded but with much much better QOL. If I had been close to upgrade it probably would have been different, but not as a long term thing. Talked to a Mesa captain yesterday and he said our second year FO pay equals their 5th year captain pay. Obviously everyones situation is different and you have to decide what works best for you and your family.
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At my regional, first year FOs make more than CAs on 3rd year pay o_O ...crazy industry.
 
I'm not directing this to anyone in this thread, just a general observation.

I'm curious why no one seems to ever give any consideration to what might be best for their professional development as a pilot? It's always what's the fastest way from point A to Z. Meanwhile, there's a whole alphabet filled of important learning experiences you leave out when you do that. Every little step along the way offers opportunities to fill your skill bag (and karma bag and luck bag) for use down the road. You never know when that might come in handy, but I guarantee you that it will if you fly long enough. Remember folks, the odds are incredibly against you being the wunderkind pilot and everyone's luck runs out sometimes.
 
Rocketman99 said:
I don't know dude, do you think AS would give up their only potential foothold on the entire east coast? Particularly in such a highly coveted market...

But please, go ahead and move on because I'm fairly certain you'll end up above me after the integration since you've been at Virgin a few years now. :D
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Oh I don't think they'll give up their foothold in NYC. In fact now that the EWR slots are being removed, AS is doing an expansion here as did VX. But what I mean is does that plan go forward with or without a pilot domicile in NYC.

I didn't know you were at AS. How long you been there, and how do you like it? I'm coming up on 5 years in just a couple months.


Rocketman99 said:
I'm not directing this to anyone in this thread, just a general observation.

I'm curious why no one seems to ever give any consideration to what might be best for their professional development as a pilot? It's always what's the fastest way from point A to Z. Meanwhile, there's a whole alphabet filled of important learning experiences you leave out when you do that. Every little step along the way offers opportunities to fill your skill bag (and karma bag and luck bag) for use down the road. You never know when that might come in handy, but I guarantee you that it will if you fly long enough. Remember folks, the odds are incredibly against you being the wunderkind pilot and everyone's luck runs out sometimes.
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Because it's a seniority system. Once you "get there" no one cares what the background was. And because it's a seniority system, nearly all want to "get there" as quick as possible. Experience and merit don't really count, so as long as you have the mins. It's all connections and good luck when it comes to getting the call. So yes professional development "matters" but still doesn't really change the reality of hiring waves and the seniority system.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Oh I don't think they'll give up their foothold in NYC. In fact now that the EWR slots are being removed, AS is doing an expansion here as did VX. But what I mean is does that plan go forward with or without a pilot domicile in NYC.

I didn't know you were at AS. How long you been there, and how do you like it? I'm coming up on 5 years in just a couple months.




Because it's a seniority system. Once you "get there" no one cares what the background was. And because it's a seniority system, nearly all want to "get there" as quick as possible. Experience and merit don't really count, so as long as you have the mins. It's all connections and good luck when it comes to getting the call. So yes professional development "matters" but still doesn't really change the reality of hiring waves and the seniority system.
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I went over last year. It's great aside from the fact that we're at the end of the contract cycle and now lagging behind the rest of the legacies on pay/benefits, but that is hopefully in the process of being remedied (ever so slowly like always). Folks are awesome and the operation runs like a well oiled Thai hooker. Umm, I mean machine. It's great to actually not dread (and dare I say enjoy?) going to work.

As to the seniority system... OK, but that doesn't really answer why no one seems to care about their professional development. Just because you got to Delta at 23 doesn't actually mean you a good pilot or even marginally useful crewmember, it just means your application looked good and you made the panel folks happy. Unfortunately the first part still matters, and on occasion it matters a lot. That's my point.
 
Rocketman99 said:
I'm not directing this to anyone in this thread, just a general observation.

I'm curious why no one seems to ever give any consideration to what might be best for their professional development as a pilot? It's always what's the fastest way from point A to Z. Meanwhile, there's a whole alphabet filled of important learning experiences you leave out when you do that. Every little step along the way offers opportunities to fill your skill bag (and karma bag and luck bag) for use down the road. You never know when that might come in handy, but I guarantee you that it will if you fly long enough. Remember folks, the odds are incredibly against you being the wunderkind pilot and everyone's luck runs out sometimes.
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For me, it's more or less about pay. I don't care what seat I'm sitting in as long as I feel like I'm earning a wage commiserate with the job and equipment. The quicker I get out of the regionals, the quicker I make more money and can keep socking away more for retirement and other stuff I enjoy. The big question for me, and I'm sure for most in my position, do I jump on the more immediate exit strategy from a regional (the LCC), or do I wait and keep plugging away where I'm at and hope I get a call to interview or if nothing else flow to mainline with a more long-term exit strategy.

I don't have my 4 year degree complete yet and I won't be able to resume working in it until 2018 when my wife finishes school. We are almost compeltely debt free and we are paying for her schooling out of pocket so doing her degree and mine at the same time isn't an option right now. I have no illusions that 1,000 TPIC will be some magical turning point in my career, but I also know it helps to set you apart from other applicants without it and shows that you are a well-rounded airline pilot with a lot of varying experience to draw from.

Looking at overall career compensation, under current pay rates I would make more lifetime earnings by holding out for a legacy even if it took another 7-8 years rather than going to an LCC. However, by going to an LCC now, I would make more money quicker and be able to save and invest more at an earlier age and compounding interest would be much more in my favor. Not to mention it would have been a better career move to go to an LCC earlier if for some reason I ever lost my medical etc. It's a tough call and the industry is changing so rapidly. I guess you never know what the right decision was until you look back on your career from retirement.
 
Rocketman99 said:
I went over last year. It's great aside from the fact that we're at the end of the contract cycle and now lagging behind the rest of the legacies on pay/benefits, but that is hopefully in the process of being remedied (ever so slowly like always). Folks are awesome and the operation runs like a well oiled Thai hooker. Umm, I mean machine. It's great to actually not dread (and dare I say enjoy?) going to work.

As to the seniority system... OK, but that doesn't really answer why no one seems to care about their professional development. Just because you got to Delta at 23 doesn't actually mean you a good pilot or even marginally useful crewmember, it just means your application looked good and you made the panel folks happy. Unfortunately the first part still matters, and on occasion it matters a lot. That's my point.
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Oh ok, where did you come from prior to AS? Glad to hear things are well. Looking at the updates, it seems we're only gonna open up Scope, Compensation, and Defined Contribution sections for the JCBA. And a separate negotiation for schedule improvements (eg, QOL issues, days off, etc).

I agree with you on professional development and agree that a 23 yr old - who is just barely qualified to hold an ATP these days with the new laws - is probably not the most competitive candidate, nor the experienced, nor fully-professionally developed (all 3 usually comes with time and aptitude, but moreso time). But IMO it is one of those things that just is-what-it-is. For example, one could be trying to do a great job and get a leg up in a new job opening that is really going to help professionally develop oneself, but if United calls right then, pilots will go. Professional development can still come at a legacy. The hope is that by the time they make left seat, they have enough prof. develop. to be a good manager and PIC.
 
chrisreedrules said:
For me, it's more or less about pay. I don't care what seat I'm sitting in as long as I feel like I'm earning a wage commiserate with the job and equipment. The quicker I get out of the regionals, the quicker I make more money and can keep socking away more for retirement and other stuff I enjoy. The big question for me, and I'm sure for most in my position, do I jump on the more immediate exit strategy from a regional (the LCC), or do I wait and keep plugging away where I'm at and hope I get a call to interview or if nothing else flow to mainline with a more long-term exit strategy.

I don't have my 4 year degree complete yet and I won't be able to resume working in it until 2018 when my wife finishes school. We are almost compeltely debt free and we are paying for her schooling out of pocket so doing her degree and mine at the same time isn't an option right now. I have no illusions that 1,000 TPIC will be some magical turning point in my career, but I also know it helps to set you apart from other applicants without it and shows that you are a well-rounded airline pilot with a lot of varying experience to draw from.

Looking at overall career compensation, under current pay rates I would make more lifetime earnings by holding out for a legacy even if it took another 7-8 years rather than going to an LCC. However, by going to an LCC now, I would make more money quicker and be able to save and invest more at an earlier age and compounding interest would be much more in my favor. Not to mention it would have been a better career move to go to an LCC earlier if for some reason I ever lost my medical etc. It's a tough call and the industry is changing so rapidly. I guess you never know what the right decision was until you look back on your career from retirement.
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Stay put and get your TPIC time.

RJ TPIC only > RJ SIC and A320 SIC only

I got that critique. "Flight time looks good (~8400 total), nice degree (engineering), good volunteer work. The thing we'd advise is get the upgrade. Get the TPIC. And then also maybe go the checkairman route. Then you'll be all set."

That was basically the gist at AA, DL, and UA. And I don't blame 'em. It is what it is. An honest critique looking at a resume. So if you are asking if you should leave a regional as a SIC only, to go to a LCC as SIC only, when your goal is to work at a legacy airline? IMO stay at the regional and get TPIC time. No magic happens at 1000 TPIC, but it will be one less thing that you have to worry about.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Stay put and get your TPIC time.

RJ TPIC only > RJ SIC and A320 SIC only

I got that critique. "Flight time looks good (~8400 total), nice degree (engineering), good volunteer work. The thing we'd advise is get the upgrade. Get the TPIC. And then also maybe go the checkairman route. Then you'll be all set."

That was basically the gist at AA, DL, and UA. And I don't blame 'em. It is what it is. An honest critique looking at a resume. So if you are asking if you should leave a regional as a SIC only, to go to a LCC as SIC only, when your goal is to work at a legacy airline? IMO stay at the regional and get TPIC time. No magic happens at 1000 TPIC, but it will be one less thing that you have to worry about.
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I'm leaning towards just staying put and enjoying the ride from where I'm at. Plus my wife doesn't want to give up my travel benefits which we use quite a bit. Pondering on all of this really makes me wonder how many other regional guys that would have otherwise gone to an LCC are going to stay put as well? And it makes me wonder where the LCCs are going to have to go in terms of compensation in order to attract qualified applicants in the next year or so...
 
chrisreedrules said:
I'm leaning towards just staying put and enjoying the ride from where I'm at. Plus my wife doesn't want to give up my travel benefits which we use quite a bit. Pondering on all of this really makes me wonder how many other regional guys that would have otherwise gone to an LCC are going to stay put as well? And it makes me wonder where the LCCs are going to have to go in terms of compensation in order to attract qualified applicants in the next year or so...
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You could always do both (ULCC + TPIC) if you want to sacrifice a lot of QOL as a junior CA here. I'll let you know in a couple days but this current bid will likely put upgrade less than 6 months. I'm currently trending to make $120k plus profit sharing as a year 2 FO with 17-18 days off a month so the money is good but not the best if compared to UPS/FedEx but QOL is the best in the industry if you live in base. Also in your analysis of lifetime earings what are you guestimating upgrade time at Legacy vs LCC? Also, I was very close to upgrading at RAH but left for the ULCC and it turns out I could have upgraded just three months later here had I taken the first upgrade. I have absolutely no regrets since I'm now based in my home town working all day trips for an airline that is really starting to turn around and become a career destination.
 
chrisreedrules said:
I'm leaning towards just staying put and enjoying the ride from where I'm at. Plus my wife doesn't want to give up my travel benefits which we use quite a bit. Pondering on all of this really makes me wonder how many other regional guys that would have otherwise gone to an LCC are going to stay put as well? And it makes me wonder where the LCCs are going to have to go in terms of compensation in order to attract qualified applicants in the next year or so...
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I basically left my regional for a LCC because my regional (at the time) was basically dead end with no movement/upgrades. Had I stayed, I would have just upgraded in 2015 after 8.5 years on 9th year pay. So in my case, leaving at the 4.5 yr mark made sense. Today, with the massive movement at both regionals and the hiring sprees coming at DL, AA, and UA, I honestly think you're better off staying put.
 
Lunchbox said:
You could always do both (ULCC + TPIC) if you want to sacrifice a lot of QOL as a junior CA here. I'll let you know in a couple days but this current bid will likely put upgrade less than 6 months. I'm currently trending to make $120k plus profit sharing as a year 2 FO with 17-18 days off a month so the money is good but not the best if compared to UPS/FedEx but QOL is the best in the industry if you live in base. Also in your analysis of lifetime earings what are you guestimating upgrade time at Legacy vs LCC? Also, I was very close to upgrading at RAH but left for the ULCC and it turns out I could have upgraded just three months later here had I taken the first upgrade. I have absolutely no regrets since I'm now based in my home town working all day trips for an airline that is really starting to turn around and become a career destination.
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Are you with Allegiant?
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Oh ok, where did you come from prior to AS? Glad to hear things are well. Looking at the updates, it seems we're only gonna open up Scope, Compensation, and Defined Contribution sections for the JCBA. And a separate negotiation for schedule improvements (eg, QOL issues, days off, etc).
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I could tell you or you could just read my signature. I bet if you had looked at that earlier you wouldn't need to ask me... :)

Yeah, that's what we continue to hear as well on my side for sections, which has a lot of the fb keyboard commandos amusingly up in arms.
 
Lunchbox said:
You could always do both (ULCC + TPIC) if you want to sacrifice a lot of QOL as a junior CA here. I'll let you know in a couple days but this current bid will likely put upgrade less than 6 months. I'm currently trending to make $120k plus profit sharing as a year 2 FO with 17-18 days off a month so the money is good but not the best if compared to UPS/FedEx but QOL is the best in the industry if you live in base. Also in your analysis of lifetime earings what are you guestimating upgrade time at Legacy vs LCC? Also, I was very close to upgrading at RAH but left for the ULCC and it turns out I could have upgraded just three months later here had I taken the first upgrade. I have absolutely no regrets since I'm now based in my home town working all day trips for an airline that is really starting to turn around and become a career destination.
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Wowza sign me up for some of that. Any pointers on how to get on?
 
Cloud Surfer said:
Wowza sign me up for some of that. Any pointers on how to get on?
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Well I should have added that I'm able to have those days off with high credit because I got lucky and moved up quicky in base. I'm able to hold all 7-8 hr day trips. A typical new hire reserve or line holder gets min days off and some bases have very slow movement so YMMV. The quick upgrades are new bases or the virtual base which is uncommutable if you're junior. The job fairs or internal reqs are the fastest way to get a call.
 
Rocketman99 said:
I'm not directing this to anyone in this thread, just a general observation.

I'm curious why no one seems to ever give any consideration to what might be best for their professional development as a pilot? It's always what's the fastest way from point A to Z. Meanwhile, there's a whole alphabet filled of important learning experiences you leave out when you do that. Every little step along the way offers opportunities to fill your skill bag (and karma bag and luck bag) for use down the road. You never know when that might come in handy, but I guarantee you that it will if you fly long enough. Remember folks, the odds are incredibly against you being the wunderkind pilot and everyone's luck runs out sometimes.
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No offense but this is kind of laughable. It's about getting on ASAP. The 23 year old 1,500 hour atp at AA,DL,UAL will gain plenty of experience. I'm not going to sacrifice QOL and money for another notch on my belt.
 
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