Regional airline buys Major! (kinda)
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EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
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Apparently, all of a sudden management has decided to do 9 month checkrides (conveniently these come up right before probation is up)
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Eagle does that too. The day of my final sim PC, the check airman comes in and tells me in broken english that he just failed a dude on his probationary ride and that he hopes mine goes better.
Apparently it did, or he fell asleep...because I passed just fine. Still thought it was kind of an • thing for him to do though. One of many I encountered there, but I digress....
Apparently, all of a sudden management has decided to do 9 month checkrides (conveniently these come up right before probation is up)
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Eagle does that too. The day of my final sim PC, the check airman comes in and tells me in broken english that he just failed a dude on his probationary ride and that he hopes mine goes better.
Apparently it did, or he fell asleep...because I passed just fine. Still thought it was kind of an • thing for him to do though. One of many I encountered there, but I digress....
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"Wow. That's the first thing you can think of when an annoucement like this comes out? You certainly have a bone to pick with those guys, huh"
I asked the question because I think those considering MAPD should consider these sort of things in their decision making process. You got a problem with that?
I asked the question because I think those considering MAPD should consider these sort of things in their decision making process. You got a problem with that?
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
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One of our former instructors is a 1 year FO with mesa. He stopped by a couple days back and was complaining about the job. Apparently, all of a sudden management has decided to do 9 month checkrides (conveniently these come up right before probation is up) and a lot of the guys getting tagged for them are the MAPD guys.
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You sure on that one? My best friend is a MAPDer that is right at 9 months with Mesa, and he hasn't heard one thing about that. He has b*tched about the scheduling guys hitting him with a two-leg trip just so he wouldn't have 5 days off in a row.....
One of our former instructors is a 1 year FO with mesa. He stopped by a couple days back and was complaining about the job. Apparently, all of a sudden management has decided to do 9 month checkrides (conveniently these come up right before probation is up) and a lot of the guys getting tagged for them are the MAPD guys.
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You sure on that one? My best friend is a MAPDer that is right at 9 months with Mesa, and he hasn't heard one thing about that. He has b*tched about the scheduling guys hitting him with a two-leg trip just so he wouldn't have 5 days off in a row.....
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Question was a good one, just the 'attitude' coming through wasn't so pleasent...
If the unthinkable happens, the students will sit idle for a few months (or who knows when) until hiring picks up again, just like it did after 9/11. Everything in this industry is timing - as you know.
Anyway, back to the actual post, Air Wisconsin is one of my goals, hopefully things will turn out for the best and they'll be hiring into the '146...saw that plane on my first solo cross-country to Portland, ME a loooong time ago and fell in love with it instantly.
~wheelsup
If the unthinkable happens, the students will sit idle for a few months (or who knows when) until hiring picks up again, just like it did after 9/11. Everything in this industry is timing - as you know.
Anyway, back to the actual post, Air Wisconsin is one of my goals, hopefully things will turn out for the best and they'll be hiring into the '146...saw that plane on my first solo cross-country to Portland, ME a loooong time ago and fell in love with it instantly.
~wheelsup
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
attitude? huh? You seemed to not like the question I asked for some reason. Then you went on to answer it nicely. Again, I think people considering MAPD should know what's up at Mesa. I got a lot of friends there. One is a checkairman on the RJ. He told me things will be really bad if US Airways tanks.
Ref your PM to me.
I don't like the idea of 300 hour pilots in the right seat of a jet. My checkairman buddy doesn't, either, but it's the way things are at Mesa. I could go on and on....but I wouldn't want to look like I have a bad attitude.
Ref your PM to me.
I don't like the idea of 300 hour pilots in the right seat of a jet. My checkairman buddy doesn't, either, but it's the way things are at Mesa. I could go on and on....but I wouldn't want to look like I have a bad attitude.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
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Again, I think people considering MAPD should know what's up at Mesa. I got a lot of friends there.
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Honestly, I don't think MAPD are doing anything worse than another school with a "bridge" program. FSI has the ASA deal, and the last I heard ASA wasn't hiring too many low time guys. ATP has the XJT deal, but it probably won't be long until XJT has enough reserve FOs to take them into the next decade with 500 TT mins. Should it fall on the school's marketing to inform potential students of industry changes? I don't think so. If you're going to make a conscious choice to enter this industry, there is NO excuse for not doing your homework. If you notice that MAPD is tied to two bankrupt airlines and the promise of an INTERVIEW (note it's not a promise of a job) blinds you so much that you can't see potential trouble ahead, then maybe you deserve what's coming. Now, when a school advertises that it can get you into the right seat of an RJ/B1900/insert regional equipment here in XXX hours, THAT is the promise of a job, and therefore not right IMO. If a student is intelligent enough to ask the questions, I feel the school should be honest in answering them.
Again, I think people considering MAPD should know what's up at Mesa. I got a lot of friends there.
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Honestly, I don't think MAPD are doing anything worse than another school with a "bridge" program. FSI has the ASA deal, and the last I heard ASA wasn't hiring too many low time guys. ATP has the XJT deal, but it probably won't be long until XJT has enough reserve FOs to take them into the next decade with 500 TT mins. Should it fall on the school's marketing to inform potential students of industry changes? I don't think so. If you're going to make a conscious choice to enter this industry, there is NO excuse for not doing your homework. If you notice that MAPD is tied to two bankrupt airlines and the promise of an INTERVIEW (note it's not a promise of a job) blinds you so much that you can't see potential trouble ahead, then maybe you deserve what's coming. Now, when a school advertises that it can get you into the right seat of an RJ/B1900/insert regional equipment here in XXX hours, THAT is the promise of a job, and therefore not right IMO. If a student is intelligent enough to ask the questions, I feel the school should be honest in answering them.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Yeah...
"Should it fall on the school's marketing to inform potential students of industry changes?"
So what you're saying is (well, you're not saying it, I am), if Mesa furloughs 300 guys and knows they won't be hiring MAPDers for, let's say, a year. You have no problem with the MAPD program continuing to accept new hires? I would think they would shut down the program. When airlines stop hiring and furlough, they usually shut down the whole pilot human resources pipeline to save money.
I guess said new hires would know what's up, at that point, and if they wanted to go that route knowing there is no interview, I guess it's their problem.
"Should it fall on the school's marketing to inform potential students of industry changes?"
So what you're saying is (well, you're not saying it, I am), if Mesa furloughs 300 guys and knows they won't be hiring MAPDers for, let's say, a year. You have no problem with the MAPD program continuing to accept new hires? I would think they would shut down the program. When airlines stop hiring and furlough, they usually shut down the whole pilot human resources pipeline to save money.
I guess said new hires would know what's up, at that point, and if they wanted to go that route knowing there is no interview, I guess it's their problem.
tonyw
Well-Known Member
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Poor UAL...they only have Mesa/Skywest now...
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Won't speak to the Mesa issue, I've probably been brainwashed too much from my buddy in ALPA's communications department.
However, as far as Skywest goes, you know, if your statement were true, which it isn't, that wouldn't be so bad. People who have forgotten more about airlines and the aviation industry than I'll ever know have said that it is the best regional out there.
Poor UAL...they only have Mesa/Skywest now...
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Won't speak to the Mesa issue, I've probably been brainwashed too much from my buddy in ALPA's communications department.
However, as far as Skywest goes, you know, if your statement were true, which it isn't, that wouldn't be so bad. People who have forgotten more about airlines and the aviation industry than I'll ever know have said that it is the best regional out there.
TallBoy85
Well-Known Member
Wow good thread...and no one has even come right out and said, "well Air Whisky should be doing Mesa's flying anyway because mesa sucks." That was nice of you all we appreciate it...
...and concessions? You can't take anything away from someone that doesn't make anything, but you can give them a checkride before they're off probation and when they fail...oops sorry I guess starting you off at 300 hours in the right seat of the jet didn't give you the fundamental skill set required to continue to compete in the airline industry. You are the weakest link, goodbye. You think things are bad some places then Mesa just makes ya go, "they do that?"
I don't know the fine print of our agreement with US Airways, but it would take a bankruptcy judge to throw out our codeshare agreement and I guarantee that JO would do anything possible to undercut Air Wisconsin's price and it probably wouldn't be very hard. Mesa isn't Airway's sole code share either, and I wouldn't be surprised to see US Airways say, "oh thank you that's very nice" and take that $125 million and use it to drag their luxury taco rocket E170s out of South America sooner or something. Airways seems to pride themselves in having lots of wholly owned subsidiarys that they baby along. Mid Atlantic being the uber-baby right now. US Air doesn't need any more 50 seat feed right now anyway...they need a major reduction in number of seats. How? E170s, a reduction in 50 seat routes and increased Dash-8 flying. With the rolling hub schedule change in Philly, I can't even count how many routes we lost to the DHC-8s at Piedmont and Allegheny. Rightfully theirs? You bet.
So will Air Wisconsin suddenly vanquish Mesa airlines? Perhaps eventually...a $125 million contribution is sizeable but it won't happen over night and ALPA would never allow a series of furloughs to take place just because someone got slipped some cash. And I don't see it happening without a fight from Mesa either unless someone offers to buy our ERJs and we have somewhere to stick the pilots.
Will MAPD continue interviewing and accepting new hires? Probably. It seems there has been a rash of 300 hour wonder success and I'm sure since the Mesa piggy bank continues to grow with the production of the 300 hour wonder, they will continue to hire and there won't be another new hire class off the street for 2-4 years. Should Mesa continue to accept 300 hour wonders for employment? No. It's not fair to the multiple morre qualified applicants out there that in fact would save Mesa money in training, efficiency of operation and eventual bent metal (we all hope not).
So thats your Mesa update for the day. Happy Sunday and while you're all at home watching the Daytona 500, I'll be trudging up and down the east coast in this nice little storm we're getting...
...and concessions? You can't take anything away from someone that doesn't make anything, but you can give them a checkride before they're off probation and when they fail...oops sorry I guess starting you off at 300 hours in the right seat of the jet didn't give you the fundamental skill set required to continue to compete in the airline industry. You are the weakest link, goodbye. You think things are bad some places then Mesa just makes ya go, "they do that?"
I don't know the fine print of our agreement with US Airways, but it would take a bankruptcy judge to throw out our codeshare agreement and I guarantee that JO would do anything possible to undercut Air Wisconsin's price and it probably wouldn't be very hard. Mesa isn't Airway's sole code share either, and I wouldn't be surprised to see US Airways say, "oh thank you that's very nice" and take that $125 million and use it to drag their luxury taco rocket E170s out of South America sooner or something. Airways seems to pride themselves in having lots of wholly owned subsidiarys that they baby along. Mid Atlantic being the uber-baby right now. US Air doesn't need any more 50 seat feed right now anyway...they need a major reduction in number of seats. How? E170s, a reduction in 50 seat routes and increased Dash-8 flying. With the rolling hub schedule change in Philly, I can't even count how many routes we lost to the DHC-8s at Piedmont and Allegheny. Rightfully theirs? You bet.
So will Air Wisconsin suddenly vanquish Mesa airlines? Perhaps eventually...a $125 million contribution is sizeable but it won't happen over night and ALPA would never allow a series of furloughs to take place just because someone got slipped some cash. And I don't see it happening without a fight from Mesa either unless someone offers to buy our ERJs and we have somewhere to stick the pilots.
Will MAPD continue interviewing and accepting new hires? Probably. It seems there has been a rash of 300 hour wonder success and I'm sure since the Mesa piggy bank continues to grow with the production of the 300 hour wonder, they will continue to hire and there won't be another new hire class off the street for 2-4 years. Should Mesa continue to accept 300 hour wonders for employment? No. It's not fair to the multiple morre qualified applicants out there that in fact would save Mesa money in training, efficiency of operation and eventual bent metal (we all hope not).
So thats your Mesa update for the day. Happy Sunday and while you're all at home watching the Daytona 500, I'll be trudging up and down the east coast in this nice little storm we're getting...
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
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if Mesa furloughs 300 guys and knows they won't be hiring MAPDers for, let's say, a year. You have no problem with the MAPD program continuing to accept new hires? I would think they would shut down the program. When airlines stop hiring and furlough, they usually shut down the whole pilot human resources pipeline to save money.
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Why should MAPD shut down? For the 1,000th time, MAPD is NOT Mesa. Saying so is like saying FSI is ASA and ATP is XJT. They use the Mesa name for marketing purposes, but the school itself is all San Juan Community College (or ASU or that other school they just added). Did the four year and community colleges stop offering computer degrees when the dot com industry went belly up? Nope. They continued to accept students into their programs without a second thought. Why should San Juan be any different?
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I guess said new hires would know what's up, at that point, and if they wanted to go that route knowing there is no interview, I guess it's their problem.
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So, how can you be a "new hire" if you haven't even been interviewed? And yes, it is their problem. I agree with you that marketing shouldn't be misleading, but if a student refuses to do his homework on his chosen industry and cry foul when it doesn't work out like he wanted, then I think he's responsibel for at least SOME of the blame.
if Mesa furloughs 300 guys and knows they won't be hiring MAPDers for, let's say, a year. You have no problem with the MAPD program continuing to accept new hires? I would think they would shut down the program. When airlines stop hiring and furlough, they usually shut down the whole pilot human resources pipeline to save money.
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Why should MAPD shut down? For the 1,000th time, MAPD is NOT Mesa. Saying so is like saying FSI is ASA and ATP is XJT. They use the Mesa name for marketing purposes, but the school itself is all San Juan Community College (or ASU or that other school they just added). Did the four year and community colleges stop offering computer degrees when the dot com industry went belly up? Nope. They continued to accept students into their programs without a second thought. Why should San Juan be any different?
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I guess said new hires would know what's up, at that point, and if they wanted to go that route knowing there is no interview, I guess it's their problem.
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So, how can you be a "new hire" if you haven't even been interviewed? And yes, it is their problem. I agree with you that marketing shouldn't be misleading, but if a student refuses to do his homework on his chosen industry and cry foul when it doesn't work out like he wanted, then I think he's responsibel for at least SOME of the blame.
TallBoy85
Well-Known Member
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Do you really think JO is trying to thin out the pilot group
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Maybe its common for a probie to eventually feel like they're being watched by a greater being...but its certainly the way it seems when most 1st year PCs are being scheduled prior to the pilot being off probation (ie...insta fireage)
Do you really think JO is trying to thin out the pilot group
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Maybe its common for a probie to eventually feel like they're being watched by a greater being...but its certainly the way it seems when most 1st year PCs are being scheduled prior to the pilot being off probation (ie...insta fireage)
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
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Really? Does Mesa make any money off of MAPD?
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Probably about as much as Delta Connection gets off of DCA.
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I can't even see that much going to them - with a '91 and up bonanza (quarter million dollar plane) renting for $120/hr wet (which is what DCA charges for their 172's) they're not making much off of the plane after fuel and mx is accounted for.
I read somewhere on here I believe DCA charges something like $100/hr for their PCATD's (with instructor) and instructors are something to the tune of $50-$60hr, for which they see about $10. MPD charges only $25/hr for the instructor, and we see a good percentage of that.
San Juan College is most likely the biggest "profiter" (is that a word
?) with every student having to take classes over there. Still, at $35/credit hour you still can't beat those prices for an aviation school!
~wheelsup
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Really? Does Mesa make any money off of MAPD?
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Probably about as much as Delta Connection gets off of DCA.
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I can't even see that much going to them - with a '91 and up bonanza (quarter million dollar plane) renting for $120/hr wet (which is what DCA charges for their 172's) they're not making much off of the plane after fuel and mx is accounted for.
I read somewhere on here I believe DCA charges something like $100/hr for their PCATD's (with instructor) and instructors are something to the tune of $50-$60hr, for which they see about $10. MPD charges only $25/hr for the instructor, and we see a good percentage of that.
San Juan College is most likely the biggest "profiter" (is that a word
~wheelsup