Reference points for commercial maneuvers

troopernflight

troopernflight

Well-Known Member
All the training I've done for Chandelle's and Lazy Eights has been using mountain tops as reference points. It was so hazy 2 days ago that I had a hard time locating the reference points while practicing the maneuvers. When I got back I asked a CFI about it and he recommended using a straight roadway. This seemed to work real well for me because I could see the reference point at any time during the maneuver, and I was able to judge my position in the maneuver much easier. I was consistently nailing the maneuvers much better than when I was using mountain tops. Has anyone else tried this and has it benefited you?
 
I used roads/intersections almost exclusively. Worked great. (of course we don't have anything around here you could call a mountain anyway.)


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- Pardon the brevity, I'm using a handheld.
 
Straight lines on the ground were about the only things to use in the nothingness that is west Texas. They work great since you can start your maneuver when your wing hits the road/pipeline/railroadtrack and have a great reference point for the rate of turn (and displacement on each side for the lazy 8).
 
Ok, sounds good. Everyone in my area just seemed to act like this practice was unusual. I guess when you live in a mountainous area things are done a little differently. But I definitely prefer using roads. Maybe I was born to do my training in Texas!
 
Oh man I won't be sad if I never have to do a lazy 8 again. Chandelles, ok, 8s on pylons can be fun, but lazy 8s? Don't miss em one bit.
 
Roger said:
Oh man I won't be sad if I never have to do a lazy 8 again. Chandelles, ok, 8s on pylons can be fun, but lazy 8s? Don't miss em one bit.
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I wouldn't be sad if I didn't have to perform one ever again myself. But unfortunately I have to perform one on Tuesday in front of a DPE.
 
Just passed my COM ASEL last Saturday. I used roads and property grid lines for my reference. Can agree that the Lazy 8s, not a lot of fun. Chandelles are fun though, 8s on pylons,,,,,ehhhh? Glad it's done though.
 
Roger said:
Oh man I won't be sad if I never have to do a lazy 8 again. Chandelles, ok, 8s on pylons can be fun, but lazy 8s? Don't miss em one bit.
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This. I actually like 8s on pylons, but the most useful part of my Comm ASEL training so far has been constantly hitting the short, soft and power off landings.
 
bayou06 said:
Just passed my COM ASEL last Saturday. I used roads and property grid lines for my reference. Can agree that the Lazy 8s, not a lot of fun. Chandelles are fun though, 8s on pylons,,,,,ehhhh? Glad it's done though.
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Man, I'm Jealous. I wish I was done. Everyone tells me the commercial is the easiest checkride, but I feel like there are so many gotcha's that can bust you. My lazy eights have been border line in my opinion, so I'm most apprehensive about that. Eight's on pylons and chandelle's were fairly easy in my opinion. The thing with my lazy eight's is my speed keeps building too fast and by the time I'm 180 I'm like 120 kts (106 entry), but yet I'm still high. Can't quite figure out what I'm doing wrong.
 
I'm sure you'll get better advice from the more experienced but for my $0.02 worth.....

I had the same problem, my instructor had me reduce the rate of climb at the start of the maneuver and that was the trick that worked for me. Kept saying "it's a LAAAZZZY 8!"




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- Pardon the brevity, I'm using a handheld.
 
Lazy eights are supposed to be the most fun. It's a power on stall setup with a turn; use moderate pitch increase and slow roll increase. Let the nose drop and slice through as you hit critical angle of attack (don't actually stall for the maneuver). Do that a few times for feel and fun without even looking at the gauges, then work your way to PTS with minor inputs on the descents.

Get yourself into a skidding stall a few times while you practice, too, so you can work out your spin prevention techniques. Fun times.
 
web265 said:
Kept saying "it's a LAAAZZZY 8!"
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That helped out a lot. I was always trying to rush through it. Just take your time and enjoy the scenery. Out here, I always used mountain peaks and canyons as my visual reference points. It helped because they are right there, and each very unique. Also, I would always start on a north or south heading, that way I could glance at the DG really quickly to nail those 45/90/135 degree points. It also allowed me to check airspeed and altitude while I was at it.
 
ya i think a quick look at the DG would help cause you have to be within 10º of the specified heading at the 180º point. I'll try using roads next time, and see if that helps.

And rather than having a mountain or whatever marking your 45º and 135º ref point, I found it helpful to think that when the point is between my wing and the nose, thats 45 or 135.º I think that only works in lo-wings, though.

I've heard people say the same thing about the commercial checkride. that it's the easiest. i disagree. people who say that are usually just private pilots. there's no such thing as an easy checkride
 
Mountains and intersections work well. If you can't find anything else maybe a cell tower or water tower could be useful.

Commercial checkride was stupid easy...if you're confident and can fly you're way out of a wet paper bag, then it should be very very easy. I was super over prepared for the practical; afterwards I felt like an idiot for getting so worried. Know everything in the PTS because it's all fair game, and know your airplane. If you answer every question confidently, AND correctly, then the flying part should be a breeze. Shouldn't it be any way by the time you have ~250 hours?

85% of my checkride involved the DPE teaching me how to pass the CFI Initial with the feds...
 
web265 said:
I'm sure you'll get better advice from the more experienced but for my $0.02 worth.....

I had the same problem, my instructor had me reduce the rate of climb at the start of the maneuver and that was the trick that worked for me. Kept saying "it's a LAAAZZZY 8!".
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Maybe I'm in the minority of people here who don't hate lazy-8's. Keep in mind that at the beginning, you need much more pitch than bank. By the 45, you should already be at maxium pitch up so that you can let airspeed bleed off while you reduce backpressure and increase bank angle. By the 90 mark you should be at minimum airspeed and no longer climbing. The second 90 should be maximum pitch down by the 45 (135 degrees from entry) so you can start to relax forward pressure so your airspeed doesn't get too fast, and reduce bank angle so your altitude is correct and the turn is finished at the 180 mark

If you're getting too fast in the last half of the maneuver, it's often because you're not pitching up enough at the start and then need to hold the back pressure too long so you can be slow enough at the 90 degree mark. Then, to try to keep the maneuver "lazy" you end up not pitching down sufficiently in the second half,which makes you hold forward pressure too long so that you can get back down to entry altitude.
 
Mike H said:
Maybe I'm in the minority of people here who don't hate lazy-8's. Keep in mind that at the beginning, you need much more pitch than bank. By the 45, you should already be at maxium pitch up so that you can let airspeed bleed off while you reduce backpressure and increase bank angle. By the 90 mark you should be at minimum airspeed and no longer climbing. The second 90 should be maximum pitch down by the 45 (135 degrees from entry) so you can start to relax forward pressure so your airspeed doesn't get too fast, and reduce bank angle so your altitude is correct and the turn is finished at the 180 mark

If you're getting too fast in the last half of the maneuver, it's often because you're not pitching up enough at the start and then need to hold the back pressure too long so you can be slow enough at the 90 degree mark. Then, to try to keep the maneuver "lazy" you end up not pitching down sufficiently in the second half,which makes you hold forward pressure too long so that you can get back down to entry altitude.
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Well, if you're in the minority I'm with you. I love all the commercial maneuvers. Prior to taking the checkride all my applicants will do the maneuvers with the instruments covered.
Let me give the OP some advice. There's a force in the universe that makes things happen. All you have to do is get in touch with it. Stop thinking. Let things happen, and be the airplane. BE the airplane.
 
troopernflight said:
Thanks for all the advice, guys. I passed!
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Congratulations! I'm starting my commercial flying next week. What airplane did you fly for your training? Complex/HP? Did you use the same plane for the checkride, x-countries, etc.? I'm starting flying for my CSEL next week and am wondering whether to do everything in the M20J or use the C172 or 152 for parts of it, or the checkride.
 
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