Recovering from a "bad landing"

Roger Roger said:
Seriously the Van has to be the easiest landing airplane ever. Like easier than a 172. If you have electric trim it lands itself. Crosswinds? The airplane one-wheels beautifully. That huge spring steel tube and those big ol tires soak up clunkers that would have you hiding in shame in, say, a PA32. Don't mean to sound like a jerk but if you have trouble landing a caravan you need someone to have a hard look at your fundamentals.
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You are correct that the plane is an easy plane to land. Fair weather it is very easy to land, so it is definitely a question of my fundamentals. Since I have done maybe 10 or 15 crosswind landings that actually were considered a crosswind. Going through training and showing "technique" does not compare to actually landing in a crosswind. Thanks for the reply man
 
JDean3204 said:
You are correct that the plane is an easy plane to land. Fair weather it is very easy to land, so it is definitely a question of my fundamentals. Since I have done maybe 10 or 15 crosswind landings that actually were considered a crosswind. Going through training and showing "technique" does not compare to actually landing in a crosswind. Thanks for the reply man
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There's lots of ego flowing around here—more than I ever realized when I started making friends with people in this community. The thing is, you came here asking for help and I think if you sift through the responses you'll find it in a couple places. Ignore the children, the bullies, and those who have forgotten what it's like to be new at something, or just not-so-good because you lack a little fundamental building block. Especially ignore those who, convinced of their own superiority, entirely fail to recognize their mistakes.

Truth be told, given your description your problem could be one of any number of things. Most likely it's due to something very simple and easily corrected. It's also possibly something that you'll just grow out of or get over on your own. That you're seeking advice should be welcomed, not mocked. I'm not sure what's up with people's attitudes lately.

-Fox
 
Acrofox said:
Eh. I think we're all thinking along the same lines here... including the OP. There may be something wrong with his fundamentals, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with him. Hell, it could literally just be a confidence thing.

-Fox
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This^^

It is not that I am not capable of landing in crap weather, because some of them do turn out well. It is the ones that turn out not so well due to my low experience that I have issues with. It is just letting go of the crap landing

Here is an example. Landing in OTH and the winds were 250 20G30 and I bounced her on RW 22 because of the gusty conditions. I cut the power too abruptly and was below that bite point, then she sank on her mains with some authority which are tubular spring steel so yes we bounced it. I recovered and set her down gently afterwards. The captain and I joked saying I could log 2 landings on that one.

It was the leg after when my confidence was still bruised because I tend to dwell on the negative points of my flying, my chief pilot even said I am harder on myself than he could be on me. I have always been that way, so I am trying to find ways to get over that negativity as it does not help my progression as a professional pilot.
 
Become aggressive in your landings, fly the plane and don't let it fly you. When I left the military flying a fighter (easy to land) to fly turboprops for a commuter I was all over the place because I was not using the rudder and ailerons aggressively to make corrections.

Get that down then work on being smoother.
 
Ok. So the deal is you won't land proficiently. Not that you can't, you won't.

First and foremost, each landing needs to be technically proficient for the flying you do. Second is the ego points for style.

I noticed you talked about getting a multi rating. Great! Don't spend your money as some suggested flying with a friend. Use that money to get a tailwheel endorsement or a glider solo. Either hunk of equipment will force you to fly the airplane to a landing. When you get back into some crapwagon nosewheel machine, you'll wonder why you struggled.

Enjoy the journey.
 
Acrofox said:
There's lots of ego flowing around here—more than I ever realized when I started making friends with people in this community. The thing is, you came here asking for help and I think if you sift through the responses you'll find it in a couple places. Ignore the children, the bullies, and those who have forgotten what it's like to be new at something, or just not-so-good because you lack a little fundamental building block. Especially ignore those who, convinced of their own superiority, entirely fail to recognize their mistakes.

Truth be told, given your description your problem could be one of any number of things. Most likely it's due to something very simple and easily corrected. It's also possibly something that you'll just grow out of or get over on your own. That you're seeking advice should be welcomed, not mocked. I'm not sure what's up with people's attitudes lately.

-Fox
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Thanks for the feedback, I am not worried about the replies that are not as positive. I am honestly asking for it by posting a thread like this knowing that everyone reads it, and most here know me in person as my screen name is not far off of my real name :)

I will just continue working on becoming a better pilot each and every flight, I am still under 500 TT and feel like I have barely seen the tip of the iceberg. I know I am a green pilot by all standards and welcome all feedback both positive and negative
 
Polar742 said:
Ok. So the deal is you won't land proficiently. Not that you can't, you won't.

First and foremost, each landing needs to be technically proficient for the flying you do. Second is the ego points for style.

I noticed you talked about getting a multi rating. Great! Don't spend your money as some suggested flying with a friend. Use that money to get a tailwheel endorsement or a glider solo. Either hunk of equipment will force you to fly the airplane to a landing. When you get back into some crapwagon nosewheel machine, you'll wonder why you struggled.

Enjoy the journey.
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One thing I plan on doing is getting my tail wheel endorsement here in the near future.
 
Springer said:
Become aggressive in your landings, fly the plane and don't let it fly you. When I left the military flying a fighter (easy to land) to fly turboprops for a commuter I was all over the place because I was not using the rudder and ailerons aggressively to make corrections.

Get that down then work on being smoother.
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Yeah, that too.

Taildraggers do help with this, too, because it becomes routine and normal to use full control deflections in the process of achieving full control. I admit I was pretty amused in a conceited sort of way when, as a 400-hour pilot, I flew in a 172XP with a friend of mine who was a multi-thousand-hour beaver pilot from Alaska and his controls were all over the place during takeoff and landing, and neither was as smooth as the run of landings I'd been making lately.

About a minute later I caught myself and realized that I was comparing myself to a pilot who was more experienced and better than I was in almost every way. His flying—in that instance—didn't come off as "as smooth" to me, but the difference was that he was firmly in control of the airplane at all times, and the airplane wasn't flying him at any moment.

We fly the same equipment, though we fly (and land) a lot differently up here than you guys do down there. Best I can say, other than "Do tailwheel! Work on fundamentals!" is: listen to your captains and your CP, and try to learn to fly the airplane as far into the landing as you can.

Oh yeah, and bounces happen to everyone now and again. Fly through them, and fly on after them. :>

-Fox
 
JDean3204 said:
I am still under 500 TT
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See, that's the problem with your fundamentals. You'll figure it out in time.
Seriously though, when you get used to crosswind landing the van I've never met a machine that does the one wheel as well as it does. Something about that tall gear.
 
Oh also if you're landing over about 8000 lbs leave some power in...otherwise when you flare you will change the pitch attitude, but the descent rate not so much.
 
Centerline, touchdown zone, speed control, sink rate, mains first.

That's what's important. After that you can work on "greasing it on." Fly the airplane all the way to the parking spot.

Centerline - not underneath your butt, but underneath the exact center of the airplane - perfectly, that's your goal.
Touchdown zone - not 2000' down the runway, but EXACTLY where YOU wanted the mains to touch.
Speed Control - the speed you intended to fly, not one knot faster or slower. Exactly on speed.
Sink Rate - be stabilized with no excessive sink rates, you should have to make very few changes in pitch or power in the last 300'
Mains First - In tricycle gear airplanes, mains first, then fly the nosewheel to the ground when it's appropriate.

Work on those before you lose yourself in other minutiae.
 
JDean3204 said:
So I have been flying the line for a few months. It has honestly been the best experience of my life, I was a very low time pilot when I started my first flying job in Feb this year. I have had a good amount of experience in the 150+ hours so far, flying hard IMC and through icing has been exciting at times. The one problem I have and always seemed to have is my confidence in landing, not during optimal weather but during gusty days or in crosswind situations. The captains I fly with are very great mentors, and let me attempt to complete the landing since it is my leg. However, I sometimes need help or just botch the landing all together because I get it stuck in my own head that i am not great at putting it down in adverse conditions. This tends to lead to a snowball effect, where I cannot stop thinking about my previous landing, this in turn degrades my confidence and performance on the next flight. My question is to all of you, is that normal? I know people say they have their bad days, but it gets to the point at times where I almost give up and say "your leg next". As I know I will just be crappy at attempting the next landing if the winds are over 25-30kts or there is a crosswind over 15kts.

Everyone says practice makes perfect, which I know is true. I was very conservative during my flight training as far as conditions at a terminal area, especially crosswind landings as I know they can present a challenge. That I am starting to regret, as I try to learn how to do them with 9 paying passengers behind me. End of my self loathing rant.... :)
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After reviewing the comments here I feel the least mentioned point is simply your indicated airspeed. Are you just 'tacking on' some arbitrary number for gusty days? It should be half the gust factor and fly the plane aggressively to keep it there. What is easy to fall into with wind is the fear of getting too slow, or at least that perception. Then you start chasing yourself in a reactionary phase versus an adaptive phase. When you are faster in the flare during a crosswind the only thing you are doing is further exposing yourself to the elements instead of landing the airplane. Work on the visual ques in light wind landings (possibly less flaps, so another visual change), hold airspeeds at half the gust factor, and fly the plane aggressively to the ramp. Have fun, be safe!
 
dasleben said:
Oh hell, I lowered SAN a couple inches the other morning. We all do it from time to time. As long as it's safe, it's not a problem.

My thought about your post? "This guy thinks too much."

Just land. :)
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Unless and until you dislocate a flight attendant's shoulder (BY LANDING, I mean...that's...never mind), you shouldn't worry too terribly much about it.

On speed, on centerline, with no lateral drift (yes...), in the touchdown zone, at a sink rate that won't result in the thing falling apart, and don't stop flying the airplane. Everything else is a bonus.
 
I was beating myself up about landings in my new job a few years ago. The CP looks over and says "Babe Ruth was a great baseball player, he didn't hit a home run every time at bat".

Kind of stuck with me....
 
Roger Roger said:
See, that's the problem with your fundamentals. You'll figure it out in time.
Seriously though, when you get used to crosswind landing the van I've never met a machine that does the one wheel as well as it does. Something about that tall gear.
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I've only been in the van a little while now but it's probably the easiest airplane to land I have flown yet. Especially coming from the Cirrus....which can be squirrely.
 
I have all of 30 hours logged in a Caravan (sic btw), so I'm obviously an expert :rolleyes: fortunately the winds are usually steady out of one direction at a time around Barrow since there is nothing to get in the way. However, the Caravan seems to be content to stay in whatever attitude it's put in. I tend to leave the power in a little too long, and come in a little high. Ailerons surprised me with their effectiveness, seemed like it would plant the upwind tire no problem.
 
On speed, on profile, and in the landing zone.... everything else is just gravy. Keep going up and keep landing... this is how you get experience. You'll be just fine.
 
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