Recent experience at Chicago PEPC on 5/19

[Kristie]

aaaahhhh....we don't go for namecalling or personal attacks on here....please regard the rules of the site (top menu) and if you think there's something wrong, report it using this icon =>

let's make sure things stay civil mmkay?!

Queeno, your comments are kinda harsh....keep in mind that people don't listen when there's a certain tone to a post and they tend to stop listening entirely when they see attitude. just goes in one ear and out the other. you might want to try and lighter, more educational approach.

 

[SoonerATC]

i have not run anyone down ,iam sorry the truth is getting in the way of your fantasy of what you may think ATC is all about.

What you're telling me is not the truth. It is a partial, half-truth that is entirely biased by your disgruntled point of view. This isn't what ATC is about - this is about the situation the Union and the FAA have jointly created. The art of moving planes from A to B does NOT require a Union or massively oppressive management, but unfortunately we have both and they're locked in a death match that will inevitably ruin them both. It's a Catch 22 - we wouldn't need the Union if management wasn't so oppressive, but we wouldn't have managers feeling like they have to be draconian if there wasn't a Union working to humiliate them (challenging their authority) at every possible turn.

all you want to hear about how wonderful it is and have some mananger blow smoke up your butt, but in todays FFA it isnt.

Back here in reality - I want to plug in, move planes from A to B, and NOT have managers gawking over my shoulder OR a highly volatile Union rep telling me how bad we have it every day.

well see how great you think it is when AVO starts fineing controllers for errors oh yea thats what they are planing nubee.

I don't think controllers should get axed after their first deal, but there does need to be accountability. If you can't get it right, you should get fired - ESPECIALLY in this field.

 

[Narayan]

Well I believe everything these vets are saying, i mean cmon there is a long history of problems for atc, i mean those controllers back in the 80's didn't strike for no reason, they were civil servants that was a big leap for them. The reason Im going to it anyway is cause I need a good job so that I can get the #### away from home now, and whatever ######## comes with it, well #### it ill fight it when i get there. Politicians were born with their heads up their asses and they are the ones who are running the whole show in the end, thats why not just the FAA, but the entire civil service system is one giant #### up. Here is the flip side though, so is just about everyone who works there, I mean lets face it if we were all high speed we could make it in aviation private sector im talkin 100k plus. The truth is this is atc is a #### load easier (no degree, no flight time, no MBA, no engineering, ect.), and face it most of the people in the government especially the management cant make it in any other job. Love it deal with it accept it, cause more than likely you cant either(and im talking about with this jobs pay and benefits, I'm sure you guys could make it at Macdonald's i think anyone can).

 

[derg]

Keep it professional folks. Remember, that's what brought us all here to Jetcareers.

 

[queeno]

What you're telling me is not the truth. It is a partial, half-truth that is entirely biased by your disgruntled point of view. This isn't what ATC is about - this is about the situation the Union and the FAA have jointly created. The art of moving planes from A to B does NOT require a Union or massively oppressive management, but unfortunately we have both and they're locked in a death match that will inevitably ruin them both. It's a Catch 22 - we wouldn't need the Union if management wasn't so oppressive, but we wouldn't have managers feeling like they have to be draconian if there wasn't a Union working to humiliate them (challenging their authority) at every possible turn.


Back here in reality - I want to plug in, move planes from A to B, and NOT have managers gawking over my shoulder OR a highly volatile Union rep telling me how bad we have it every day.


I don't think controllers should get axed after their first deal, but there does need to be accountability. If you can't get it right, you should get fired - ESPECIALLY in this field.

you should also give up the ATC thing and go stright into mangement youve got the right attitude for it you are allready anti union and you seem to know all thet there is about ATC before you have been even hired, but it was not NATCA that walked away and cut the pay and work rules it was the FFA .well if YOU do make it i would like to see how fast YOU would be runnung to the union if the FFA tryed to fire you for haveing an error.and dont talk to me about accountability pal ive been accountable for my action for 28 years in some of the busyst airspace in the world and so are the other controllers i work with, maybe you should come down to chicago and we will see how good you really are. you a big talker now but training is a long long negative process and you havent even steped foot in the door yet.remember ZOOMEE this isnt the USAF and you are not an officer any more, youll just be another number to them and an expendable one.

 

[RetiredATLATC]

Since dealing with the FAA is so unjust and miserable, could you veterans please point me to a career field that involves no personality conflicts or occasional injustices, and also pays well?

I'm not here to start fights, but some of you act like you're such victims. Some of us have families to support and aren't sure how to do that yet. It's not easy to find a job that pays this well, not to mention one in the aviation field which we love.

No matter what I choose to do, there will be frustrations, power-tripping managers, and unfairness. I can't change nor predict any of these circumstances, I can only control how I handle them.

You have it so good and all you do is complain. You blame the FAA, or blame something else, but this is life. Of course things aren't perfect, they never will be. If you're miserable, I suggest looking in the mirror for your explanation.

You're right, it is just me. Thank you for setting me straight. To think this comes from someone who isn't even a controller yet. Whew. Boy do I feel stupid.

 

[RetiredATLATC]

That's what we're looking for as new applicants. You can show us what it once was without running us down like Queeno and his cohorts I hope I'm not considered a cohort :crazy:. Like Chris said, the frustration comes from knowing what it was and now what it is like to do. Be a leader and not someone we're going to despise I can tell you this, from the dozen + we have had, nobody has despised, or even disliked any of the new kids. We are professionals, not hooligans (except ChrisATC) and take this job extremely seriously. The only people that I personally have had problems with are the ones who have come in with a smart a**/holier than thou/entitlement/know-it-all attitude. This is what I got from a CTI new hire a few months back. I had suggested to him that, instead of constantly watching TV on breaks, he should have his nose in the .65, his response was "I went to college, I learned everything about ATC I need to know". This is NOT the way to endear yourself to the people that are going to be training you. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Show up on time, study and respect the ones who have been there before you when we get to our facility.

 

[RetiredATLATC]

Folks, please go back to ChrisATC's post about the difference between controller and manglement.
For those of you that think that this is about Union against manglement, you are sadly mistaken. We are ONLY about moving TOO MANY aircraft in TOO SMALL airspace with TOO few people for TOO MANY hours per day.

They (manglement) are about deniability and putting spin on every problem so the flying public keeps getting on the planes of the airlines that the FFAA is in bed with.

The sarcasm/anger comes from years of being treated like cr**. Yes we have good pay and a good job. But that is all that it has become, a job. For those of you that are thinking about taking this job, I know you. You are not just taking this job for money, you are taking it because you have a PASSION for aviation and ATC.

That sadly has been extinguished.

The comes from faafollies.com and is how we are treated and thought of by our employer:

Take a look here at a court case involving Joseph N. Miniace, Blakey’s hired gun, Deputy Assistant Administrator for Human Resource Management (former title of Deputy Assistant Administrator for Strategic Labor Management Relations) and lead negotiator on the FAA’s contract negotiating team. Pages 5, 6, 18, and 19 are especially interesting. Mr. Miniace was making in excess of $350,000 per year with perks.
Remember this, people:
“Union busting is a field populated by bullies and built on deceit. A campaign against a union is an assault on individuals and a war on truth. As such, it is a war without honor. The only way to bust a union is to lie, distort, manipulate, threaten and always, always attack.”
Built on deceit. Lie, distort, manipulate, threaten and always, always attack.

and

“Union busters wield great power through their program of terror and manipulation – people don’t, can’t possibly know what’s going on and who’s telling the truth. You have to appreciate that most of the people [at a workplace] are just regular people. They in their lives have no experience with violence, with being lied to, with manipulation, and with being harassed in open, gross, insulting ways. The first time this program happens to regular people, they’re terrified. Their fondest wish after a few months of this is that it would just go away and go back to being like it was. The union busters know this. None of this is intellectual at all. It works on the gut.”
How many of you have people at your facilities that just wish it would all go away? That NATCA just accept something to make it stop? That NATCA just stops fighting altogether? That maybe the lies the Agency are spreading might actually be true? It’s funny how early on, before Mr. Levitt’s writing came to light, NATCA came up with the bumper sticker that stated “I believe NATCA”. Keep believing, folks.
“I was not bound by any code of ethics or any professional canons and therefore would not have to worry about my behavior at the bargaining table. In fact, for the purposes of my resume, the naughtier I was, the better…..because a charge of surface bargaining is very difficult to substantiate…All I would have to do to defend myself would be to show that I had agreed to something, that some progress had been made.”

 

[wanderingphoto.com]

ok skippy. . . good luck being a second class citizen.

Please define "second class citizen"

 

[chrisatc]

Please define "second class citizen"

I believe what is referred to here has to do with the current state of labor relations in the FAA. In trying to demonstrate that the union is irrelevant in today's FAA, management has chosen to eliminate controller input into the design of any new systems or procedures being developed for the NAS. At A80, we have seen numerous new procedures implemented over the last couple of years only to see them fail for the very reasons we had espoused from the beginning.

Bottom line, although you are the everyday user and have a good idea of what will and will not work, management does not want your input because they believe they know what is best. If they weren't smarter than the rest of us, they would never have been promoted to their position of authority over us.

It is important to remember that most of this attitude emanates from the career paper-pushers in Washington, not at the local level. And it goes back to the major difference between controllers and management. We, the controllers, make operational decisions based on operational needs on a moment-by-moment basis. Management, particularly at the HQ level, makes political decisions based on personal and political ambitions and goals. Controllers do not care about political ramifications. Our number one priority is the safety of the NAS.

 

[wanderingphoto.com]

To think this comes from someone who isn't even a controller yet.

Again, we resort to the lazy empirical argument again. . . sorry it just doesn't do it for me.

Listen, you guys have provided information that is helpful to me, and I want to show respect and appreciation for that, not get in arguments. My apologies for any ruffled feathers.

I know what's going on with the FAA right now and I fully understand it. I have worked a union job-- and then done the exact same job without a union (with the exact same management and coworkers for both). A few years back I completed an exhaustive 4-month study of the dynamics of labor unions in the US over the last 100yrs. Look, I get it.

If you think only "management lies, deceives, oppresses, etc." then ironically you've been punk'd by your union-- because unions will lie, deceive, obfuscate, and manipulate just as much as management.

FACT: Unions are NO MORE noble than mangement. If you think this FAA situation is an exception to that fact, well, as I mentioned, you've been punk'd! Unions are businesses that survive and operate just like any other business. They need to make money, and they are subject to the exact same predictable human nature as the FAA or anyone else.

I will say no more on the subject. Believe me I respect you guys and GREATLY value your help. I think no less of you for any of your opinions and hope you will feel the same about me.

 

[chrisatc]

Again, we resort to the lazy empirical argument again. . . sorry it just doesn't do it for me.

Listen, you guys have provided information that is helpful to me, and I want to show respect and appreciation for that, not get in arguments. My apologies for any ruffled feathers.

I know what's going on with the FAA right now and I fully understand it. I have worked a union job-- and then done the exact same job without a union (with the exact same management and coworkers for both). A few years back I completed an exhaustive 4-month study of the dynamics of labor unions in the US over the last 100yrs. Look, I get it.

If you think only "management lies, deceives, oppresses, etc." then ironically you've been punk'd by your union-- because unions will lie, deceive, obfuscate, and manipulate just as much as management.

FACT: Unions are NO MORE noble than mangement. If you think this FAA situation is an exception to that fact, well, as I mentioned, you've been punk'd! Unions are businesses that survive and operate just like any other business. They need to make money, and they are subject to the exact same predictable human nature as the FAA or anyone else.

I will say no more on the subject. Believe me I respect you guys and GREATLY value your help. I think no less of you for any of your opinions and hope you will feel the same about me.

Knowing ATLTRACON (aka psycho) as I do, this was not a personal slam towards anyone but rather he was venting his frustration with the whole career situation in his sarcastic, humorous way.

Believe me, we at A80 are not being punk'd by our own union. We have had our own facility-oriented experiences with them over the last few years. However, in this current battle, there can be no straddling the fence, and we know failure is certain in the current environment. So we choose to try to change the situation for ourselves and future generations. Anything less is unacceptable.

Chris

 

[mugenfan_98]

My dad came into this career out of the military just after the strike in the 80's. It has changed quite a bit since he started. Us guys coming into this will be lucky to make as much at the end as these guys did when they first started. I strongly agree many of these noobs will wash out. When I went to my pepc and heard every one talking about what they left to pursue this career, I give it three weeks where ever they go before they start to regret leaving their 9-5 cubicle job. I've seen the stress of the schedule, the management, and administrative garbage, take its toll on my family when I was young. I'm going in to this with nothing to lose. Short of going back to school while supporting a family, this is the best thing I can do to make sure my family can live comfortably.

The vet's are right, things can suck, but the noobs that take it to heart and are already letting it bother without even being in that situation are the ones that will wash out.

 

[brianjgault]

Not really sure how this thread got hijacked, but it certainly has strayed very far from it's original purpose. :crazy:


My own, unsolicited $.02 for anyone that cares re: IWR and conditions in general:

1. If you haven't taken time to research the situation and ask the real necessary questions (and I'm not talking about, "How much leave time do I get?" or "How much will I make at a level 'x' facility?"), then you probably have zero business applying for, much less taking, a job in the field of ATC.

2. Each side of the situation has clearly different agendas and goals. These goals are not going to line up, no matter how much people try to make them...kind of the nature of being part of a political agency. The real issue here is how to co-exist and accomplish the ultimate goal of bringing passengers and cargo home safely every time they fly.

3. Most nubees (newbies, noobies, etc.) are not starry eyed with current conditions. They have no false hopes or aspirations about making millions and working 35 hours per week in return for their paycheck.

4. Many new controllers WILL wash out for a number of reasons. Is it fair? Probably not, but it's the current situation.

5. Some (but not all) new controllers and applicants seem to have a crap attitude about working with the "old-timers" and see them as being over the hill and crabbing for the sake of crabbing. I personally think that until the applicants and new controllers have pushed tin in their respective facilities that they should smile, take it all in, and shut up. Once they have some personal experience to draw from regarding the state of affairs of the FAA as it currently stands...then they can say whatever they want to. But, to argue just for the sake of arguing seems to be entirely pointless..especially when there's nothing to draw from other than press releases and second hand knowledge.

6. And finally, as much as many of the old timers would like for the OTS applicants to close their applications in a show of solidarity...it just isn't going to happen. For many, even with the reduced pay and increased hours, this job is still an improvement over their current situation or other long term job prospects. The FAA knows this, which is why they keep opening national OTS announcements.

Just my $.02.

 

[RetiredATLATC]

Back here in reality - I want to plug in, move planes from A to B, and NOT have managers gawking over my shoulder OR a highly volatile Union rep telling me how bad we have it every day.
You're going to get one of these, and I'll give you one guess to which one.
I, in my twenty-two plus years has never met a "volatile" Union rep. Remember, we are not the Teamsters or Meat packers. We are highly skilled professionals who act, and thank goodness, now dress the part.

I don't think controllers should get axed after their first deal, but there does need to be accountability. If you can't get it right, you should get fired - ESPECIALLY in this field. First off, the FFAA doesn't care what you think in a certain situation. Second, keep your second sentence in mind when you are in front of the training review board.

 

[RetiredATLATC]

Without NATCA, there would be no checks and balances. We are STRONG because we will burn every bush the FAA will hide behind and turn over every stone they crawl under and when this ship has turned,

AND it WILL. We will not forget what they have done, we will not forget…

· The 1500 developmentals they promised to grandfather into the A-scale, stole from and didn't.
· The CIP they are taking from controllers and continue to pay those that could not or do not separate aircraft
CIP= Controller Incentive Pay. Problem is the controllers have had it taken away for years and now ONLY manglement gets CIP. The same manglement that are manglement 'cause they couldn't separate their cheeks with two hands and a flashlight.
· The ZLA upgrade they gave to management but not to those that actually keep the planes apart
That's right the FFAA gave an upgrade, based on traffic count that the CONTROLLERS work, and ONLY gave the upgrade to manglement.
· The callous, arbitrary and capricious way they discard our probationary employees
Blink wrong, and you're fired. It's not a scare tactic, it's just the truth. Seen it happen.
· The disparity in the way they train, employ, pay and even discipline their most valued asset, their employees.
· We will never forget our brothers and sisters forced to work beyond reasonable limitations---ever shortening their careers and lives

 

[dpiatek]

· The callous, arbitrary and capricious way they discard our probationary employees
Blink wrong, and you're fired. It's not a scare tactic, it's just the truth. Seen it happen.

I don't understand this although I've read it a few different times from posters. Why would the FAA spend so much time/money training and recruiting new individuals when there is a shortage of controllers just to fire them before their probationary period ends? I assume they want you to succeed and if you do your job then you shouldn't have to worry about anything. I've been in sales jobs and although the failure rate is higher than most other professions, the companies spend a lot of money training you and it's in their best interest to have you succeed. They want you to succeed. Maybe it's my ignorance, but I don't see why the FAA would be any different.

 

[MrFent]

Maybe it's my ignorance, but I don't see why the FAA would be any different.

BECAUSE PEOPLE COULD DIE

 

[dpiatek]

BECAUSE PEOPLE COULD DIE

Maybe you misunderstood my post... I was referring to being let go for insignificant reasons; as in "arbitrary". And in reasons why the FAA would not want you to succeed when it is in their best interest.

 

[RetiredATLATC]

I don't understand this although I've read it a few different times from posters. Why would the FAA spend so much time/money training and recruiting new individuals when there is a shortage of controllers just to fire them before their probationary period ends? I assume they want you to succeed Wow are you living in Oz. They would just as soon fire you as blink. And they are VERY good at doing this just before your probationary period ends.and if you do your job then you shouldn't have to worry about anything HA. I've been in sales jobs and although the failure rate is higher than most other professions, the companies spend a lot of money training you and it's in their best interest to have you succeed. They want you to succeed. Maybe it's my ignorance, but I don't see why the FAA would be any different.Because it's the FFAA. Who knows why they do what they do. Why do they hire a secretary as a stupervisor when 1. she had NEVER checked out in ANY facility. EVER. 2 There were 12 other qualified applicants.[/quote]

These are the same people that get on TV and in front of Congress and repeatedly lie and deceive the American public over and over again. Reminds me of the Iraqi PR Minister telling the world that the American troops were nowhere near Baghdad and the tanks were rumbling through the city.