reality check q400 ewr

jynxyjoe said:
/rant start

I really don't get it with you guys, and your posturing about "my regional is the same as yours"(rhetorical you, not you cruise). I can't speak for every pilot in the industry, but the only time I've ever had someone discount a couple extra thousand a year is some wealthy trust fund baby. I had a partial scholarship through school and I just recently paid off my school loans. I'm debt free except for the house and have an emergency fund complete and a car fund started. Why? I left your regional and went to one that pays better on the same equipment. Those of you that don't give a crap about another couple thousand dollars in your pockets FINE, the rest of us DO. You may notice, aside from Eagle, the rest of us are shedding jobs while Colgan started hiring. The extra couple grand a year, however insignificant to you (not Cruise, the rhetorical you), pays our bills and puts food on the table. Wanna know how to bring some professionalism and fellowship BACK to this industry? It isn't by ignoring the obvious problems a company has and publicly refuting the worst kept secrets in regional airlines. GET RID OF THE RICH BRATS WHO WORK IT! Make it a law. It's the blue collar that built the middle class, not third generational wealth looking for a shortcut. My regional is better than yours, I stand by that. ASA is better than mine and so is Eagle. Hell, Compass and GoJets pays their FO's more for the same # seats.

Now please, someone with a knee-jerk reaction like "Yeah but you are underpaid just like me" to make this rant complete. Please, give me some genuine Glen Beck patented tears too. That crap kills me. We should all go make $18000 a year at Colgan. Sign me up, that makes me a comrade right? I'm not going to fall in line with that thinking. Pilots should not goto Colgan and further the spiral, if you don't agree thats fine, I've noticed the loud protests against this argument for a while now.

/rant end

Also, if the company and the FAA wanted to sit in my lap on every flight I'm damn sure they'd find something to be pissed at me for. A method I've seen on the line to get rid of the patented Bombardier "Crazy Ivan" would probably make some inspectors head spin. You guys got rode like ponies, and Colgan and Pinnacle set you all up for failure. I got very lucky because I was able to leave and make more money, improve my QOL, and get away from the high COL in the Northeast. I would feel sorry for ya all, it obviously you all are happy with it and this is the new standard for regional aviation excellence. So carry on.
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Yeah, that. You tell 'em, Joe.

Seriously now- much love and respect for my Colgan colleagues.. but really. How do you know how it is elsewhere when you've never been elsewhere?

I was "Doin' Da Colgan" once upon a time- until I decided another employer would be a better fit for me.

The difference is shocking. Seriously. If you wonder where so much of my piss and vinegar towards the shoddy aspects of the airline industry comes from, it's from seeing how great a disparity can exist, and that it has gone almost entirely unchecked until now.
 
kellwolf said:
HA! It's actually better in the -900 than the -200. Wuss. :)
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I got your wuss right here. Wait, I'm in white needles... dammit why it is in roll!? Ok, heading and approach and- wait, wtf, why is it in pitch now? Will it intercept with pitch mode? Am I in green needles yet? screw it, autopilot off. Why is it blue? will it capture blue needles? Thank God it's a visual.

It's not automation that bothers me, its useless automation.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Fine, roll your eyes, twice even. For what it is worth I highlighted the above as stuff I agree with. You keep saying my original premise (as counted by your Colgan pilots, not by me) was wrong and that subsequently, your pilots are wrong. I wonder how far off we are when one guy can count close to 50 people off the top of his head. To be clear, I don't work for Colgan I just hear things from current employees, my old co-workers. My informations second hand AT BEST. I am in no way a real source of information, but it sounds like row9 is.

One guy in his reality check got his count up to 49. Lot more than 7 people isn't it? It's obvious you all are still in triage mode, and it's obvious I'm just beating on a beaten dog. Maybe someday you all will be out of triage mode, but it's a reality for now, that when it comes to matters regarding Colgan, you are gonna put whatever spin you can on it to save face. While I agree completely I'm "touting" this information publicly, I'm doing it more as a "WTF Cruise," not a "reporter". I'm pretty sure your response to all this is, "ya know what Joe? This is none of your business, I'm tired of everyone from the FAA and Management picking on us, I don't need other pilots or ex pilots doing it too". Thats fine, I for one think this oughta be flushed too. I don't like getting picked on either.

/rant start

I really don't get it with you guys, and your posturing about "my regional is the same as yours"(rhetorical you, not you cruise). I can't speak for every pilot in the industry, but the only time I've ever had someone discount a couple extra thousand a year is some wealthy trust fund baby. I had a partial scholarship through school and I just recently paid off my school loans. I'm debt free except for the house and have an emergency fund complete and a car fund started. Why? I left your regional and went to one that pays better on the same equipment. Those of you that don't give a crap about another couple thousand dollars in your pockets FINE, the rest of us DO. You may notice, aside from Eagle, the rest of us are shedding jobs while Colgan started hiring. The extra couple grand a year, however insignificant to you (not Cruise, the rhetorical you), pays our bills and puts food on the table. Wanna know how to bring some professionalism and fellowship BACK to this industry? It isn't by ignoring the obvious problems a company has and publicly refuting the worst kept secrets in regional airlines. GET RID OF THE RICH BRATS WHO WORK IT! Make it a law. It's the blue collar that built the middle class, not third generational wealth looking for a shortcut. My regional is better than yours, I stand by that. ASA is better than mine and so is Eagle. Hell, Compass and GoJets pays their FO's more for the same # seats.

Now please, someone with a knee-jerk reaction like "Yeah but you are underpaid just like me" to make this rant complete. Please, give me some genuine Glen Beck patented tears too. That crap kills me. We should all go make $18000 a year at Colgan. Sign me up, that makes me a comrade right? I'm not going to fall in line with that thinking. Pilots should not goto Colgan and further the spiral, if you don't agree thats fine, I've noticed the loud protests against this argument for a while now.

/rant end

Also, if the company and the FAA wanted to sit in my lap on every flight I'm damn sure they'd find something to be pissed at me for. A method I've seen on the line to get rid of the patented Bombardier "Crazy Ivan" would probably make some inspectors head spin. You guys got rode like ponies, and Colgan and Pinnacle set you all up for failure. I got very lucky because I was able to leave and make more money, improve my QOL, and get away from the high COL in the Northeast. I would feel sorry for ya all, it obviously you all are happy with it and this is the new standard for regional aviation excellence. So carry on.
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I haven't got the time or patience to type a diatribe like the one above......so, guess you win. Congrats! :)

FWIW, I agree w/ many of your points.
 
I know it seems like a knee jerk reaction to all these things but if guys are screwing up like this you have to fire them, I have heard plenty of stories about crash pad parties the nights before shows and stuff like that from people who work at Colgan. You guys are not a mom and pop operation anymore, and when its all said and done your order books are filled with more q400's so you can't screw up anymore. Thats why they are doing what they are doing but you also have to remember that some of these things are serious stuff, and they warrent termination.
 
I personally know of one Horizon Captain (now Check Airman) that went past the 850 detent on the Q400. It was right after he transitioned from the Q200 to the Q400. I know at Horizon there were some "growing pains" with the not only the airplane but with the crews as well. You had lots of crews that had flown the Dash 8-100's and Q200's that thought flying the Q400 was more or less the same.

While I understand the desire to have a common type rating for all Dash 8's, the Q400 should be it's own type. It's got enough differences between systems and the overall handling of the aircraft that it should be on it's own.

While I have never personally seen a stick shaker while flying on the line, I can see how one could get it while attempting to fly Vref with "Ref Speeds: Increase" selected on. I know that Colgan does it different than Horizon, but on our descent check, we have set Vref (open blue bug) and Vref ICE (solid blue bug).

The whole "APU on while De-Ice" issue, I'm having a hard time comprehending why that's a bad thing. Our procedure was to push and De-Ice with the APU running, but the Bleed Air selected off.

Before Colgan got the Q4, back in the street captain days, I got a call from Chuck Colgan...he had pulled my resume from Airlineapps or Climbto350...asking me if I'd like to interview, and if I could "bring my books from Horizon". I said thanks, but no thanks.
 
SurferLucas said:
Before Colgan got the Q4, back in the street captain days, I got a call from Chuck Colgan...he had pulled my resume from Airlineapps or Climbto350...asking me if I'd like to interview, and if I could "bring my books from Horizon". I said thanks, but no thanks.
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That part in bold right there.. that's very telling.

Colgan Air's single biggest operating flaw comes with a lack of internal support and planning. They're well beyond the 'Mom and Pop' type place, but expect to still be able to exert that sort of managerial effort.

.. then, when line-level employees find themselves swimming with the sharks, there's no real managerial support to help them do it.

So yeah, crews get eaten.

Then there's lots of "management" in the bluster that gets filed to the press.

A little regulation would go a long way here....
 
Firebird2XC said:
Yeah, that. You tell 'em, Joe.

Seriously now- much love and respect for my Colgan colleagues.. but really. How do you know how it is elsewhere when you've never been elsewhere?

I was "Doin' Da Colgan" once upon a time- until I decided another employer would be a better fit for me.

The difference is shocking. Seriously. If you wonder where so much of my piss and vinegar towards the shoddy aspects of the airline industry comes from, it's from seeing how great a disparity can exist, and that it has gone almost entirely unchecked until now.
Click to expand...

While I'm not going to dispute the fact that Eagle is a lot better than Colgan, the Beech 1900 world you were in 3-4 years ago is also worlds apart from where Colgan is now. While you do have experience at Colgan, it was a brief and rather narrow picture. I wholeheartedly agree that it still needs improvement, but I'm just coming from more recent experience.
 
FWIW- I have NEVER seen a stick shaker in ANY regime of flight at in my time at Colgan (3yrs).

The Colgan pilots just need to focus on running a safe operation day in a day out. We will make this a better place to work.

To volunteer go to colgan.alpa.org.
 
Firebird2XC said:
That part in bold right there.. that's very telling.

Colgan Air's single biggest operating flaw comes with a lack of internal support and planning. They're well beyond the 'Mom and Pop' type place, but expect to still be able to exert that sort of managerial effort.

.. then, when line-level employees find themselves swimming with the sharks, there's no real managerial support to help them do it.

So yeah, crews get eaten.

Then there's lots of "management" in the bluster that gets filed to the press.

A little regulation would go a long way here....
Click to expand...

Sad thing is...and this too some talking to a check airman friend to get over it...after the Colgan crash, I went back to Horizon very soon after. While I was there and read the NTSB's investigation, I came across Colgan's standard checklist and approach profile for the Q400.

I think I recall seeing (and please correct me if I'm wrong here) that Colgan required crews to be stabilized before the FAF on an ILS? Meaning, they would begin slowing well before a Horizon crew would flying the same airplane.

What the sad part is though, I thought about how if I had gone to a Colgan interview, been hired and let them see my Horizon books for the Q4...maybe their procedures would have been more mirrored to Horizon's.

That's alot of maybe's...but just one of those ways your mind can play tricks on you I suppose.
 
SurferLucas said:
Sad thing is...and this too some talking to a check airman friend to get over it...after the Colgan crash, I went back to Horizon very soon after. While I was there and read the NTSB's investigation, I came across Colgan's standard checklist and approach profile for the Q400.

I think I recall seeing (and please correct me if I'm wrong here) that Colgan required crews to be stabilized before the FAF on an ILS? Meaning, they would begin slowing well before a Horizon crew would flying the same airplane.

What the sad part is though, I thought about how if I had gone to a Colgan interview, been hired and let them see my Horizon books for the Q4...maybe their procedures would have been more mirrored to Horizon's.

That's alot of maybe's...but just one of those ways your mind can play tricks on you I suppose.
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I'm sure that weighs heavy, brother, but I hope you don't chew on it too long. If there were shortcomings in the Colgan Q400 training program, it was their responsibility to correct that, not yours.

Your experience is noteworthy, however, and a good indication that we all need to make sure we take a good hard look at how things are industry wide at present so we can take aggressive steps in the future to move forward.
 
SurferLucas said:
Sad thing is...and this too some talking to a check airman friend to get over it...after the Colgan crash, I went back to Horizon very soon after. While I was there and read the NTSB's investigation, I came across Colgan's standard checklist and approach profile for the Q400.

I think I recall seeing (and please correct me if I'm wrong here) that Colgan required crews to be stabilized before the FAF on an ILS? Meaning, they would begin slowing well before a Horizon crew would flying the same airplane.

What the sad part is though, I thought about how if I had gone to a Colgan interview, been hired and let them see my Horizon books for the Q4...maybe their procedures would have been more mirrored to Horizon's.

That's alot of maybe's...but just one of those ways your mind can play tricks on you I suppose.
Click to expand...


Nothing you could've done. Wouldn't have been your place to do so anyway.

It is interesting though how different airlines flying the exact same equipment, fly them differently sometimes, with different checklist items and such. Noticed that a long time ago when looking at 727 checklists for two different major airlines. There were notable differences between the two, for the same exact airplane.
 
Yeah i wish we could switch to Horizon's way of bugging speeds for landing. Definitely seems like the smarter way! Probably several other things that would work better, thats just the only one I know.
 
MikeD said:
Nothing you could've done. Wouldn't have been your place to do so anyway.

It is interesting though how different airlines flying the exact same equipment, fly them differently sometimes, with different checklist items and such. Noticed that a long time ago when looking at 727 checklists for two different major airlines. There were notable differences between the two, for the same exact airplane.
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This would be an interesting thread on its own merits. I believe that TWA used to have exceptional training. I believe that even the American pilots will say that the TWA guys had a better way of doing things for the most part. It would be interesting to see what differences existed between TWA-AA, NWA-DAL, USAir and America West, etc. What were the differences, which way was better, what procedures survived the merger, etc. I wonder if any airlines saw a better system at an airline they bought (DAL at NWA or AA at TWA) and adopted those procedures, of if they kept their own even if they were inferior. As I said, that would be a different thread but interesting.
 
jynxyjoe said:
I got your wuss right here. Wait, I'm in white needles... dammit why it is in roll!? Ok, heading and approach and- wait, wtf, why is it in pitch now? Will it intercept with pitch mode? Am I in green needles yet? screw it, autopilot off. Why is it blue? will it capture blue needles? Thank God it's a visual.

It's not automation that bothers me, its useless automation.
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:laff:...Thats good stuff there my friend.
 
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