Read and Do vs. Do and Verify for checklist use
- Thread starter A150K
- Start date
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Flow and verify.
TwoTwoLeft
o- - - - - - -l
For primary students, teaching checklist use is obviously going to be a little different than transition training to a different aircraft for an experienced pilot.
For the first few lessons it will just have to be read and do since they really have no prior knowledge of what anything does, why they do it or have a good recognition of its location. What the hell is that carb heat thing for anyway?
Before solo, when you start teaching emergency procedures, the student will have a better understanding of the systems and should be able to reach for the control with out having to look for it. This is the time to introduce the "flow" with "do and verify". By now they should know the three elements it takes to keep the engine running (ignition, air & fuel) and the cockpit controls that can influence each element.
For the first few lessons it will just have to be read and do since they really have no prior knowledge of what anything does, why they do it or have a good recognition of its location. What the hell is that carb heat thing for anyway?
Before solo, when you start teaching emergency procedures, the student will have a better understanding of the systems and should be able to reach for the control with out having to look for it. This is the time to introduce the "flow" with "do and verify". By now they should know the three elements it takes to keep the engine running (ignition, air & fuel) and the cockpit controls that can influence each element.
Der_Meister
Well-Known Member
The school I teach at uses the read do for 95% of the checklist. The important emergency stuff I have my students do verify. Though I do like to tailor my flight training for each student. If they plan on becoming a professional pilot I strongly push the do verify for all of the checklist, if they are the "weekend warrior" type I push the read do.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
It depends on the task. I see the distinct ways of using a checklist, depending on the task.
I rarely do or teach a step-by-step read and to. That's pretty much helpful for learning a new airplane or pilots in the early part of training.
The second is the "do and verify" often accompanied by a flow. That's great for a wide variety of tasks, but ...
The third is "brief and do." It involves using the checklist to brief a task. Best example is before takeoff. You'd read and review the checklist tasks - Vr, Vy, Vx, takeoff flap retraction, takeoff emergency procedures - before you roll onto the runway. It would be kind of a mistake to either (1) start rolling down the runway and then see what speed you should rotate at or (2) roll down the runway, takeoff and then check to see whether you did it right (assuming you didn't crash).
I rarely do or teach a step-by-step read and to. That's pretty much helpful for learning a new airplane or pilots in the early part of training.
The second is the "do and verify" often accompanied by a flow. That's great for a wide variety of tasks, but ...
The third is "brief and do." It involves using the checklist to brief a task. Best example is before takeoff. You'd read and review the checklist tasks - Vr, Vy, Vx, takeoff flap retraction, takeoff emergency procedures - before you roll onto the runway. It would be kind of a mistake to either (1) start rolling down the runway and then see what speed you should rotate at or (2) roll down the runway, takeoff and then check to see whether you did it right (assuming you didn't crash).
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
My question is when are these people doing the "read-do" type of checklist usage? Staring down a the checklist can cause a hazard while in the air. I understand a new pilot wont be able to do a "do-verify" type of checklist usage but if they memorize the checklist (which in a C-172 isn't bad) then they can create their own flow relatively quickly. I would also tell them to hanger fly when they can as it is free and they will transition to a "do-verify" system quite easily.
If they are career students the transition to an airline would be much easier.
If they are career students the transition to an airline would be much easier.
A150K
Well-Known Member
I gave a flight review to a guy last week who got so fixated on the pre landing chacklst (in a cherokee), that he lost his SA in the pattern and lost sight of traffic he previously had and accepted visual seperation with. And then when we went to shut down the plane, he misplaced his checklist, so instead of flipping the avionics master off, mixture idle cut-off, mags off, and master off, he decided to unbuckle himself and search the backseat for his checklist with the engine running
. He's a good friend and a decent stick, but the overreliance on a written checklist to get routine stuff done was apparent (emergency checklists are different. Most of them require a very specific order and should be done as a do-list) and inefficient.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Not a CFI but that's never stopped me before.
I personally do-verify for everything with a notable exception. If its an abnormal procedure I read-and-do after any associated memory items are completed. Since I don't do those that often, I figure its super important not to screw it up, and given that order usually counts with what you do after a memory item, or after something abnormal makes you bust out the checklist, its important to be cautious about which switches you start throwing. That's just me though, initially at FSI they wanted us single pilot guys to read and do. I said, "this isn't going to work in the airplaane because we have no autopilot, and I can't be trying to read the checklist for every item in a busy terminal environment. I'll get to the list but its more important to fly airplane right now." Just my 2 cents.
I personally do-verify for everything with a notable exception. If its an abnormal procedure I read-and-do after any associated memory items are completed. Since I don't do those that often, I figure its super important not to screw it up, and given that order usually counts with what you do after a memory item, or after something abnormal makes you bust out the checklist, its important to be cautious about which switches you start throwing. That's just me though, initially at FSI they wanted us single pilot guys to read and do. I said, "this isn't going to work in the airplaane because we have no autopilot, and I can't be trying to read the checklist for every item in a busy terminal environment. I'll get to the list but its more important to fly airplane right now." Just my 2 cents.
Flow 'n verify is what I learned and kind of how we roll at my current employer.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Shutdown checklist for most small pistons...I gave a flight review to a guy last week who got so fixated on the pre landing chacklst (in a cherokee), that he lost his SA in the pattern and lost sight of traffic he previously had and accepted visual seperation with. And then when we went to shut down the plane, he misplaced his checklist, so instead of flipping the avionics master off, mixture idle cut-off, mags off, and master off, he decided to unbuckle himself and search the backseat for his checklist with the engine running
Magic (EFIS)
Music (radios)
Mixture
Mags
Master
Personal technique, but I usually kill the anti collision lights right before the master. Others like to leave them on all the time, especially if you a) only fly in the daytime or b) have a rotating beacon.
TheNorthStar
Well-Known Member
I am convinced that we need more instructors teaching private pilots how to use a checklist. Its a check...list, not a do....list. Teach your student how to create his own logical flow that makes sense to him and then have him check it with the checklist like a real pilot. I get headaches when I get in the plane with a guy and he whips out the checklist and starts reading and moving switches like its an instruction manual. I understand it for brand new students who have less then 5 hours of flight time, but after that they should be taught how to fly the plane by flows, and check them with the checklist when able. . I fly a 172 with the same procedures I fly a Citation.
All of that said...most manufacturer's checklists are complete garbage. Almost all single-engine checklists I've ever seen are set up as do-lists to teach someone how to fly the airplane. I like to create concise checklists for each airplane I fly (except when I'm flying 135 then I use the company checklist obviously). Even Cessna's checklist for their turbine equipment (Citations) are terrible. There is NO reason a checklist should be 15 pages long. Thats a check-novel.
End of rant...
All of that said...most manufacturer's checklists are complete garbage. Almost all single-engine checklists I've ever seen are set up as do-lists to teach someone how to fly the airplane. I like to create concise checklists for each airplane I fly (except when I'm flying 135 then I use the company checklist obviously). Even Cessna's checklist for their turbine equipment (Citations) are terrible. There is NO reason a checklist should be 15 pages long. Thats a check-novel.
End of rant...
But then you can make it a do-list depending on the phase of flight. I have most of the checklists memorized, but I generally end up "doing", when reading off the checklist, things like recycling the cross-feed valves (ETOPS only) or hitting the recall button on the descent checklist.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Haha. The every time I call ready in the TriPacer I feel like I've missed at least 6 things because the before takeoff checks are so short
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
It makes for good habits as you progress into more complex aircraft though. If you have been using a flow then verifying with a checklist, then tranistioning to airplanes where it is required is not a "culture shock".
No kidding. Every time I fly my airplane, I feel something is missing because it didn't take 30+ minutes to get ready.
A150K
Well-Known Member
I typically don't reference it for normal procedures in an airplane I'm comfortable/familiar in, but it's always flipped to the emergency page just in case I need it...
A150K
Well-Known Member
Additionally, I have lots of unwritten checklists that I follow to the T. GUMP is one example that works well in complex aircraft.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Stop whining, ranting and getting headaches because other people use a different procedure than you do.
Yes, when I get in the airplane with an experienced pilot who hasn't developed flows, I wonder how come. If it's a training flight (like a FR), I will even suggest that he or she consider learning flows. But, so long as the pilot isn't doing something unsafe, I don't get worked up over techniques just because they are not mine.