TheFlyingTurkey
Fetus Worshiper
CFIse said:
Piedmont is wholly owned by US Airways and has always been profitable even when mainline was in bankruptcy. Why? Because of the Dash-8. It breaks even with as few as 5 pax on board.
Re-introducing the turboprop
- Thread starter meritflyer
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Piedmont is wholly owned by US Airways and has always been profitable even when mainline was in bankruptcy. Why? Because of the Dash-8. It breaks even with as few as 5 pax on board.
TheFlyingTurkey
Fetus Worshiper
sopdan said:Okay, then I challenge you to name a regional (other than Horizon) that pays more than $24 for a jet (or t-prop) for first year FO.
1st year FO pay at Piedmont is $24
2nd year pay is $28
All we fly at Piedmont is the Dash-8.
Snapadeuce
New Member
Doug Taylor said:
Mmmmmm, tapwater and Ramen, cockroaches for extra protein.
TheFlyingTurkey said:
It's not clear to me that you can get that clear a picture of the tightly held wholly owneds, because who knows what dollars may or may not be hiding elsewhere. Mainline can make the wholly owned look amazingly profitable or stunning unprofitable on a whim - by and large they probably want them to look good in case they need to sell them.
Regardless - we've got an example of a wholly owned doing well. Does anyone have an example of a bread and butter regional doing badly?
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
tonyw said:
Your logic is flawed Tony. Take a look at the numbers of TPs that used to be in service back then and look at the numbers now. Are you following?
Jan 1999 - Turboprops accounted for 1 in 4 regional commercial flights in the US.
May 2002 -Turboprop routes fell nearly 19% (victims to RJs).
July 2005 - Turboprops accounted for 1 in 11 regional commercial flights in the US.
Are you in denial? Just because they are still around does not mean they are flourishing. They have lost ground with the introduction of the RJ - alot of ground.
Here is a quote from an Embraer spokesman -
"The Canadair RJ's success has made the regional jet a "proven concept," said Mike Gearhart, spokesman with Embraer Aircraft Co.'s U.S. headquarters in Fort Lauderdale, Fla. Embraer also produces 30-seat turboprop planes but hopes over time to upgrade all its customers to jets."
HMMM... Even the companies would like to "upgrade its customer to jets".
They are still out there but not in the numbers they once were. Its a fact. They are still around and flying okay? They just dont serve the industry in the same amounts and they once did.
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
More Turboprop Facts
- Continental conducted an analysis of passengers' patterns, studying markets in which jets have been replaced with turboprops and vice versa. They concluded as many as 30 percent to 50 percent of passengers shy away from turboprops, either by taking longer routes through hubs of competing carriers, driving or other means.
- Today, Canadair RJs are flying longer routes, such as Atlanta to Toronto, as well as routes as short as 63 miles.
- Comair saw a considerable, steady increase in traffic when replacing TPs with RJs on the same route (up 9%).
Its just the facts. I think TPs are awesome but does the average traveler feel the same?
- Continental conducted an analysis of passengers' patterns, studying markets in which jets have been replaced with turboprops and vice versa. They concluded as many as 30 percent to 50 percent of passengers shy away from turboprops, either by taking longer routes through hubs of competing carriers, driving or other means.
- Today, Canadair RJs are flying longer routes, such as Atlanta to Toronto, as well as routes as short as 63 miles.
- Comair saw a considerable, steady increase in traffic when replacing TPs with RJs on the same route (up 9%).
Its just the facts. I think TPs are awesome but does the average traveler feel the same?
flyover
New Member
Bandit_Driver said:
That's what it always comes down to. Just how stupid the customers are.
For one, even the most educated customer prefers the comfort and noise level of a jet over the typical TP. And secondly, the jets are statistically safer. Maybe that's why they somehow believe that.
I've flown as pax in Q400s several times here in the UK - what a great plane, British European is using them to replace aging BAe146's, bye bye jets hello props....having said that it is interesting that the last route to be switched over is the London Gatwick to Jersey route, where they have comptetition from British Airways using 737's.
The Q400 was surprisingly quiet to fly on, has great STOL performance. handy when you go hopping around islands in the English Channel with shortish runways. Also the profit/break even with light pax load suits British European very well, they even have codeshares with Air France and Delta and many of those routes already use the Q400. It could be that in places where the airline knows there is very little choice over route TurboProps like the Q400 will survive.
The Q400 was surprisingly quiet to fly on, has great STOL performance. handy when you go hopping around islands in the English Channel with shortish runways. Also the profit/break even with light pax load suits British European very well, they even have codeshares with Air France and Delta and many of those routes already use the Q400. It could be that in places where the airline knows there is very little choice over route TurboProps like the Q400 will survive.
shinysideup
New Member
Alright my .02
The "larger" airlines are looking to scrape the bottom of the barrel, and get the cheepest operator to fly the less then 300nm legs. If "compnay a" puts in a bid using dirt cheep labor and an RJ, and "company B" puts in a bid to use TPs and pay their pilots and FAs well, the bids will come out to about the same. Roughly 25% cheeper operating costs on the turbo prop. So long as company A matches B's prices, the parent airline will go with A. That doesn't make it right for the pilots, but so long as MESA, Pinnacle, etc. still scrape the bottom with pilot pay they can keep the company "B's" out there off their legs.
The "larger" airlines are looking to scrape the bottom of the barrel, and get the cheepest operator to fly the less then 300nm legs. If "compnay a" puts in a bid using dirt cheep labor and an RJ, and "company B" puts in a bid to use TPs and pay their pilots and FAs well, the bids will come out to about the same. Roughly 25% cheeper operating costs on the turbo prop. So long as company A matches B's prices, the parent airline will go with A. That doesn't make it right for the pilots, but so long as MESA, Pinnacle, etc. still scrape the bottom with pilot pay they can keep the company "B's" out there off their legs.
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
shinysideup said:
The problem with your logic is that Embraer would debate you that their ERJs are more as fuel efficient when comparing the time difference between a TP and RJ.
tonyw
Well-Known Member
Well, there are 18,000 jets in service, and 6,000 turboprops. Let's see, what was that figure you were quoting? About one in four flights?
Sure looks like it's the same way now.
So, anyway, what was that about turboprops disappearing?
And Bombardier would tell you they're wrong. Horizon bought a boatload of new turboprops. I don't think they did that in order to lose money, but I could be wrong.
Sure looks like it's the same way now.
So, anyway, what was that about turboprops disappearing?
meritflyer said:
And Bombardier would tell you they're wrong. Horizon bought a boatload of new turboprops. I don't think they did that in order to lose money, but I could be wrong.
shinysideup
New Member
meritflyer said:
Looking at 3-500 mile flights... the TP wins all day long. Take a look at http://www.q400.com/q400/en/turbo.jsp Bombardier will tell you a TP is more efficient then their CRJ. Embraer would debate that the ERJs are more efficient because they have no TP (spare the EMB-120 which competes with no one).
Bandit_Driver said:
I'm not really reading ALL of this yippitty yap, but the Saab 2000 seems like a monster of a turbo prop. I love the thing, hell I love the 340. We had an old Chico Saab on our GA ramp(the purchaser and a small crew were flying it out), and the thing looked mean and massive. A guy I worked with said he recognized one of the guys from Colgan....he thought.
That being said, all day long at IND you'll only see a FEW 121 TPs. TSA and Air Canada Jazz. The past few years they've just all but.....gone away. I'd completely dig it if a whole grip of 121 TP's showed back up. (I say this now)I want my first 121 gig to be in TP.
Carry on
