RC Plane and Real Plane Collide Over Runway

riddle2012 said:
I say you gone a bit too far with the interstate. That is like flying your rc plane at a bigger airport like Atlanta or Orlando according what interstate your talking about lol! But anyway more like driving you car on a country road probably! But some R/C pilots dont have a clue what the Regulations are and if some average joe ask the guy come fly at our airport and doesnt tell him the rules how does he know??? Everything was just not organized throughout the event and I believe everyone is probably at fault.
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So ignorance is bliss, eh?
 
cmill said:
So ignorance is bliss, eh?
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No, but at an event where there is an AirBoss standing next to you, one would think you should be safe. I have a feeling that the feds will hit him with 91.13, 91.119 (b) (open air assembly of persons), and 91.111. After all, an RC aircraft is still an aircraft.

We all know how the FAA works. And they will go after the person who does know better. A low pass with smoke on, yeah, he shoulda know better. I am not condoning the actions of the RC pilot by any means. This was a fortunate mistake only because no one got hurt.
 
mshunter said:
No, but at an event where there is an AirBoss standing next to you, one would think you should be safe. I have a feeling that the feds will hit him with 91.13, 91.119 (b) (open air assembly of persons), and 91.111. After all, an RC aircraft is still an aircraft.

We all know how the FAA works. And they will go after the person who does know better. A low pass with smoke on, yeah, he shoulda know better. I am not condoning the actions of the RC pilot by any means. This was a fortunate mistake only because no one got hurt.
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Really? 91.13 is almost always tacked on in addition to another violation. 91.119, it was at an airport. Purpose of take off or landing, at a sparsely populated area. (Airports are aways considered that.)

91.111. Quit grasping at straws. I think we both know theres not a law judge on the planet that would put a RC in the same category as a full scale.

Ignorance does not make someones actions right. Ask the guy in the lawn chair with the six pack of beer over LAX.

I used to be huge into model rockets, and they were very controlled, even out in the middle of no where. Why should RC planes at an airport be any different? If you wanna fly your in toy, go out into a god damn field.
 
JoelT said:
I am both an airline pilot and fly giant scale RC. By the FARs you NEVER have the right of way over real airplanes.



Unless it is a controlled airport real airplanes will always have right of way. However, if it is a towered airport then the airspace is controlled and airplanes can be directed.



Absolutely not! Once again, at a non-towered airport the real airplanes will always have right of way because the the airspace is uncontrolled. If anything the RC pilot owes the Pitts pilot reimbursement.
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JoelT said:
You don't need a ground level waiver to land, execute a go-around or low approach. Everything the Pitts pilot did was legal by the FARs.

Also, since this was an uncontrolled field then the air boss actually has no authority to direct traffic. He can coordinate it but can not clear an airplane to take off or land. Also, unless the airport was NOTAM'd closed then the Pitts had more of a right to be there than the Slick.
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the RC guy is an RC guy... it is the duty of the organizers to make sure the invited guests/performers are aware of the rules and how and where to go no??? Unreasonable to expect the RC guy to know all this....

Hmmm.... at every event I have flown RC at, (though tower controlled in my cases).. when it was RC Demo time.... the runway was CLOSED unless there was a mayday

several have commented that the biplane pilot surely saw the crowd of people on/next to the runway.. and apparently there is a rule about flying within 500 feet of people....

The organizers and the biplane pilot screwed up.... the poor RC pilot was just flying his demo when the management told him to.
 
Mike H said:
1. Do you need a special, commercial license to fly these "models" for compensation or hire? Didn't think so.

2. Is there even any occasion to fly these "models" for compensation or hire? Didn't think so either.

3. Are your toys capable of pulling enough G's to rip the wings and/or epmennage off the, uh... aircraft? No? Then don't even think to compare them to real aerobatic airplanes.



I've watched the video twice and that's one thing I never heard anybody say. Maybe I need to turn up my speakers.
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Hey Mike... I love everything that flies.... and I fully recognize the skill and physical robustness that say, a Su31 or CAP232 or Extra Aerobatic pilot must have....

but... sorry dude.. there is no way any full size Civilian/aerobatic (and prolly military) airplane can match the performance of a 40% RC Model...

"Full Size" aerobatic planes have too much wing loading and too little power loading.....

the full size aerobatic pilots freely admit.. they are decades behind models from a performance standpoint....

True.. my Arse isn't on the line.... I will certainly admit the Extra/Su/Cap/Edge pilots clank when they walk....

but pure pilot skill??? Pure Aircraft performance.... sorry... not even close....

Oh.. your G's question.... well usually a well designed 40% model will pull 20 or 30 g's... without failing.... can you do that and stay awake??? lol
 
JoelT said:
Check out the thread at flyinggiants.com to get a better picture of what happened. There was no NOTAM issued for the event and was not official in any way. The Airboss had no legal grounds to provide air traffic control services of any kind. It would be like some one driving their RC car on the interstate with their buddy trying to direct traffic with a cardboard stop sign.
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This is one of the funniest visuals I could imagine! Hillarious! RC car on I-85 in ATL with a cardboard stop sign!!! Ridiculous!!
 
JoelT said:
Check out the thread at flyinggiants.com to get a better picture of what happened. There was no NOTAM issued for the event and was not official in any way. The Airboss had no legal grounds to provide air traffic control services of any kind. It would be like some one driving their RC car on the interstate with their buddy trying to direct traffic with a cardboard stop sign.
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I would say more like a race track owner inviting an RC Car guy to drive around the track and Parnelli Jones come roaring out of the pit and runs over the RC Car....

Hey... it was the duty of the Airport manager to make sure all the requirements were taken care of.... the RC guy is just an RC guy who was invited there to DEMO....
The organizers/owners failed to direct/educate the RC guy and the apparently 100 or so people lined up unrestrained along the runway....

Joe Gremlin said:
No clearance with control what so ever? Are you kidding me? Its an uncontrolled field. Perhaps you should read up on that and really educate yourself about what it means and exactly what authority your 'air boss' had when no notam was issued before you go setting foot on a real airport again. :banghead:
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So all this "Real Planes have Priority" gives the bipe flyer carte blanche to be stupid???? Huh??

I will bet you a $5.00 gift certificate to McDonald's, the full size pilot was well aware of a "Event" happening at this airstrip.... I bet it will come out.. he wasn't trying to land.. he was show-boating down the runway... he knew to look for real planes... didn't see any... went for the "Maverick-buzz-the-tower" deal with the smoke on.....

poor coordination and planning by the organizer and the bipe pilot... RC guy is a victim.....

the FAA report will say this.....

cmill said:
Like i said, im not in this to point blame. I'm biased towards the pilot, ill admit that, because he had a lot more to lose, and it was at a damned airport.

That being said, im pretty convinced the Pitts knew what type of event it was. The thing is, it wasnt put together properly, and when it comes right down to the point, the full scale had the right of way over the slick. There are no mitigating circumstances like doing a low appch or anything else. Ther fars are pretty clear. Its an airport, and planes are meant to be there, not RC's.

If risk wanted to be mitigated, there should have been a NOTAM and some restricted airspace. In that case, the Pitts would have cearly been in the wrong. That isnt the case though. Like it or not RCs have to play by the same rules as full size planes, and the rules will always favor planes with people in them.
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well.. yup.. poor planning.. shoulda been a NOTAM.... but how is the bipe pilot gonna 'splain flying at the speed of heat with the smoke on within 500 feet of a crowd????
THAT seems kinda hard to justify in my uninformed RC pilot mind.... in addition to being against regulations.. it does seem stupid....

Joe Gremlin said:
I hear you and I agree 100%. But the reality is RC guys don't have to play by the same rules. The RC pilot in question was under the belief that a guy on the ground with a hand held radio carried the exact same authority as ATC. He was also under the belief that the Pitts needed a clearance in order to operate at that airport. IOW the RC had not even the slightest hint of a clue about the rules and regulations that are in place at the airport at which he was operating.

Now if he had strapped himself into a N-numbered airplane and operated at that field with his level of knowledge, he'd be subject to the full wrath of the FAA. But as an RC guy? Meh, he gets away with the old 'he's just an RC guy, he doesn't have to know the rules'. That's BS. If you're going to operate your RC aircraft from a facility that has federal regulations which govern activies that can take place there, you should be required to know and understand those regulations just like everyone else who operates there.

Like someone else said, you don't see these guys taking their RC cars out on the interstate and having a guy stick a piece of duct tape on his shirt that has 'Road Boss' written in sharpie on it and hold up a cardboard sign that says 'Don't drive here, RC car demo in progress'. Yet they'll go to a real airport and do essentially the same thing and then they get their panties all in a bunch when it doesn't work out so hot for them.
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Interesting comment.... as I mentioned before, I have flown over a half dozen airshows with a 40% model.... and at the meetings with the organizers... with "Air Bosses" in attendance, and FAA Officials in attendance, no one told me to go read these regulations and pass a test before you fly..... not even the FAA representatives.... not even the officials from the Edwards Flight Test facility.....


This is in some way possibly a fortunate event... it has brought to light a deficiency in prolly many RC Demos performed at a lot of Airshow events... and hopefully this will precipitate improvements in the process...... and NOT another Legal Specialty!!

hopefully not the beginning of the end of RC Demos at airshows in my estimation....
 
Mithrandir said:
Hey Mike... I love everything that flies.... and I fully recognize the skill and physical robustness that say, a Su31 or CAP232 or Extra Aerobatic pilot must have....

but... sorry dude.. there is no way any full size Civilian/aerobatic (and prolly military) airplane can match the performance of a 40% RC Model...

"Full Size" aerobatic planes have too much wing loading and too little power loading.....

the full size aerobatic pilots freely admit.. they are decades behind models from a performance standpoint....

True.. my Arse isn't on the line.... I will certainly admit the Extra/Su/Cap/Edge pilots clank when they walk....

but pure pilot skill??? Pure Aircraft performance.... sorry... not even close....

Oh.. your G's question.... well usually a well designed 40% model will pull 20 or 30 g's... without failing.... can you do that and stay awake??? lol
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Are you kidding me? If I understand you correctly, you think it takes MORE skill to be an RC operator, than a pilot of aforementioned aerobatic aircraft?

What a joke.
 
Apophis said:
Are you kidding me? If I understand you correctly, you think it takes MORE skill to be an RC operator, than a pilot of aforementioned aerobatic aircraft?

What a joke.
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ahh ha ha ha... why don't you go ask a couple of the "Full Size" aerobatic pilots that also fly RC and see what they tell you!!!

yeah.. I admit... our lives aren't at risk.... and we are in the comfort of 1 g..... I won't even try to take that away from the aerobatic guys....

but they are decades behind us in performance..... Watch.... http://www.giantcircus.com/Videos/WWWIII_P2.wmv

Wayne Handley built the Turbo Raven just so he could emulate the tricks our "Toys" do.....
 
Mithrandir said:
ahh ha ha ha... why don't you go ask a couple of the "Full Size" aerobatic pilots that also fly RC and see what they tell you!!!

yeah.. I admit... our lives aren't at risk.... and we are in the comfort of 1 g..... I won't even try to take that away from the aerobatic guys....

but they are decades behind us in performance..... Watch.... http://www.giantcircus.com/Videos/WWWIII_P2.wmv

Wayne Handley built the Turbo Raven just so he could emulate the tricks our "Toys" do.....
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Somebody remind me why I haven't been to an 'airshow' in 16 years...
 
Mithrandir said:
ahh ha ha ha... why don't you go ask a couple of the "Full Size" aerobatic pilots that also fly RC and see what they tell you!!!

yeah.. I admit... our lives aren't at risk.... and we are in the comfort of 1 g..... I won't even try to take that away from the aerobatic guys....

but they are decades behind us in performance..... Watch.... http://www.giantcircus.com/Videos/WWWIII_P2.wmv

Wayne Handley built the Turbo Raven just so he could emulate the tricks our "Toys" do.....
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ZOMFG Yur RC toy aeroplanez video wuz sooo allsome!!!111!!one!one!!!11

Sorry, but a toy is still a toy, no amount of whining can change that.

An RC plane "operator" is not a pilot. Fact.

You have your opinions on the matter, I have mine. Move on.
 
Apophis said:
ZOMFG Yur RC toy aeroplanez video wuz sooo allsome!!!111!!one!one!!!11

Sorry, but a toy is still a toy, no amount of whining can change that.

An RC plane "operator" is not a pilot. Fact.

You have your opinions on the matter, I have mine. Move on.
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ahh ha ha ha.... ... relax Dawg... it is all good... and even though you apparently have no respect for toy planes, I still love everything that flies... prolly even the plane you rent for 2 hours every other saturday too!!
 
Apophis said:
ZOMFG Yur RC toy aeroplanez video wuz sooo allsome!!!111!!one!one!!!11

Sorry, but a toy is still a toy, no amount of whining can change that.

An RC plane "operator" is not a pilot. Fact.

You have your opinions on the matter, I have mine. Move on.
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With an attitude like that, I bet you have a few affliction shirts yourself. Do you wear them in the Cherokee as well?

I feel safe to say I can see both sides of this. I've done demos similar to this one with my models. (I actually have the same model as this guy). I've also flown full scale air shows, plenty of acro time, and maybe even witnessed first hand several "go arounds" similar to this.

I've been fortunate to have well rounded experience from gliders, seaplanes, and everything in between to my current Intl Corporate Jet gig. Still fly a lot of small stuff, and plenty of RC planes/helis as well.

I can without a doubt tell you that hovering and other forms of "high alpha" flight that the upper echelon of modelers have perfected takes as much skill as flying an ILS to minimums. You can teach a monkey to do either quite well.

Watch that Heli video posted above. That's not most peoples cup of tea, but the reflexes, coordination, and situational awareness it takes to accomplish that is absolutely incredible.

The ranks of the serious RC modeler include an incredible percentage of professional and GA pilots. I assume that a lot of them are like me and hate that there is rift between two forms of the same thing, aviation.

With that out of the way, I'd like to point out of few of my opinions:

These models are no more a "toy" than a Pitts or Starduster. With a few exceptions on both sides, we buy these "toys" with surplus money to fill our spare time with a pastime that is enjoyable to us.

The RC pilot was young and uninformed. He didn't know the finer points of the situation, or the potential consequences. In a court of law that won't mean squat. I wonder if any "young and uninformed" aviators have ever found themselves in a pickle. In all of aviation, we learn with age and experience. Please keep in mind that this event was organized and run by FS pilots.

In my estimation, the person that deserves an apology the most is the pax in the bipe. The pilot knew the risks. Everytime you buzz a strip, event or not, your hanging your tail out the window. Do you think his heart rate and adrenaline were elevated before he met the model? H3LL Yeah!

This was an unfortunate event. Luckily everybody walked away. Hopefully we can learn from this for future events. I can tell you that the Modelling Community are already drafting guidelines to give the pilots the information they need to have before providing demonstrations at full scale events. The FAA might even look at this video and realize it needs a similar AC for those wishing to hold a non-waivered event at an uncontrolled airport. These guys obviously needed some guidance. (and at least a NOTAM!)
 
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