Rant: Respect, Military/Civilian

What is it with some people that, because they served in the military, they feel entitled to some lifelong measure of deference or respect by their non-military fellow citizens?

Service is not measured strictly by whether or not you were in the military. There are many ways to serve your fellow man. I know several veterans whom the closest to combat they ever got was basic training. After that they served in a regular job just like any other person. Yet they feel as thought they have done some special service for me or my fellow citizens

Don't get me wrong. For those who actually put themselves in harm's way on behalf of this nation and its people, and for those who where injured or killed doing the same, I have nothing but the highest regard. But don't tell me I owe you anything other than basic courtesy simply because you wore a military uniform at one point in your life.
 
What is it with some people that, because they served in the military, they feel entitled to some lifelong measure of deference or respect by their non-military fellow citizens?

Service is not measured strictly by whether or not you were in the military. There are many ways to serve your fellow man. I know several veterans whom the closest to combat they ever got was basic training. After that they served in a regular job just like any other person. Yet they feel as thought they have done some special service for me or my fellow citizens

Don't get me wrong. For those who actually put themselves in harm's way on behalf of this nation and its people, and for those who where injured or killed doing the same, I have nothing but the highest regard. But don't tell me I owe you anything other than basic courtesy simply because you wore a military uniform at one point in your life.

though this post seems like flame bait there is some truth to those remarks. You don't see peace corps volunteers demanding the same respect, and for the most part, the job and the conditions are about as bad. That being said, I think all members of the voluntary services should be entitled to respect and proper treatment for life.
 
Some pilots act like idiots.

Some police officers act like idiots.

Some stock brokers act like idiots.

That's why some former military members act like idiots. They come from the same general population as everyone else and have their fair percentage of idiots.
 
Some pilots act like idiots.

Some police officers act like idiots.

Some stock brokers act like idiots.

That's why some former military members act like idiots. They come from the same general population as everyone else and have their fair percentage of idiots.
:yeahthat:
 
What is it with some people that, because they served in the military, they feel entitled to some lifelong measure of deference or respect by their non-military fellow citizens?

Service is not measured strictly by whether or not you were in the military. There are many ways to serve your fellow man. I know several veterans whom the closest to combat they ever got was basic training. After that they served in a regular job just like any other person. Yet they feel as thought they have done some special service for me or my fellow citizens

Don't get me wrong. For those who actually put themselves in harm's way on behalf of this nation and its people, and for those who where injured or killed doing the same, I have nothing but the highest regard. But don't tell me I owe you anything other than basic courtesy simply because you wore a military uniform at one point in your life.

For the most part a very true statement.

What I get irritated with is when military members think they're entitled to something more. As if being in the military made them a "super citizen"...someone who is just a little more equal than all of the other American citizens.

Sorry, but that's not how it works.

All Americans are equal (except, of course, for felons and stuff...). If you volunteered to be in the military, thanks for your service. If you saw combat, thanks for your service. Other than that, when you hang up the uniform, go back to being the normal American citizen -- don't cling to that uniform for the rest of your life.

I firmly believe that every American SHOULD better their country somehow with some measure of giving back -- it certainly does not have to be in the military -- but I think that is entirely voluntary.
 
For the most part a very true statement.

What I get irritated with is when military members think they're entitled to something more. As if being in the military made them a "super citizen"...someone who is just a little more equal than all of the other American citizens.

Sorry, but that's not how it works.

All Americans are equal (except, of course, for felons and stuff...). If you volunteered to be in the military, thanks for your service. If you saw combat, thanks for your service. Other than that, when you hang up the uniform, go back to being the normal American citizen -- don't cling to that uniform for the rest of your life.

I firmly believe that every American SHOULD better their country somehow with some measure of giving back -- it certainly does not have to be in the military -- but I think that is entirely voluntary.

:yeahthat:

Once again, spot on.
 
For the most part a very true statement.

What I get irritated with is when military members think they're entitled to something more. As if being in the military made them a "super citizen"...someone who is just a little more equal than all of the other American citizens.

Sorry, but that's not how it works.

All Americans are equal (except, of course, for felons and stuff...). If you volunteered to be in the military, thanks for your service. If you saw combat, thanks for your service. Other than that, when you hang up the uniform, go back to being the normal American citizen -- don't cling to that uniform for the rest of your life.

I firmly believe that every American SHOULD better their country somehow with some measure of giving back -- it certainly does not have to be in the military -- but I think that is entirely voluntary.


I partially disagree with you Hacker. All Americans are surely not equal and when your time is done I would say it is nearly impossible to hang up the uniform and go back to being a "normal" citizen.

As far as equality goes, how does the average citizen compare to a service member that voluntarily spends between 6-15 months deployed...away from their homes...and families...and dogs :crazy:

My experience directly relates to the Army (being my branch of choice), I can't think of a single friend that hasn't yet deployed in his career so far. And coming from the Infantry community and now newly into the Aviation community, pretty much everyone I know has been shot at or had some form of hostile action directed towards them, in at least one of their deployments). I think these experiences will change them forever.
 
I partially disagree with you Hacker. All Americans are surely not equal .

Are you serious?

Sorry, but there's this little piece of paper that we swore to support and defend that says otherwise.

"More equal" is something out of a George Orwell book.
 
Are you serious?

Sorry, but there's this little piece of paper that we swore to support and defend that says otherwise.

"More equal" is something out of a George Orwell book.


And "equal" is out of a perfect Utopia.....which doesnt exist...

everybody is not equal...


Now don't get me wrong I am not saying service members deserve anything more than what is promised in their contract but. But yes a person who volunteers...especially in wartime to serve their country...is set apart.


edit*

In fact hacker, you said it yourself...we are on the same page...mostly

but in your above post you said (and contradicted) yourself

All Americans are equal (except, of course, for felons and stuff...)"

Your interpreting what I'm saying as "we are superior to everyone else"....which is not true...
 
i'm sorry but i just came into this thread. I am an AF officer and see no problem with carrying something in your right hand. There is no AFI or anything against it. Sometimes you carry too much stuff to not even salute, as long as the salute is either rendered or the head nod is acknowledged it doesn't matter.
 
i'm sorry but i just came into this thread. I am an AF officer and see no problem with carrying something in your right hand.

That's right, you can always switch it over.


Sometimes you carry too much stuff to not even salute, as long as the salute is either rendered or the head nod is acknowledged it doesn't matter.

I'd recommend you do everything in your power to render that salute - whether it's an initiated one, or especially if it's a return. If you can't, you can't, but really, really try.
 
I'd recommend you do everything in your power to render that salute - whether it's an initiated one, or especially if it's a return. If you can't, you can't, but really, really try.

i'm talking about multiple boxes or things like that....stuff thats obvious you cant switch over because you are using both hands to carry it.
 
The OP still hasn't answered my question about what happened that set them off about the salute issue in the first place, especially since they were dealing with a civilian, presumably indoors and out of uniform. The OP also hasn't established how this interaction reflects a lack of respect among military members.
 
I was merely an E-5 (NCOs: backbone of the Army :D) before I got booted from active duty for a jump injury, but I specifically recall that if we were caught not rendering proper military courtesy at the 82nd Airborne we were simply and utterly destroyed. In my experience it varied depending on the post; places that were normally for training, etc, were typically more lax than the places that were always at a high state of readiness, and God forbid you forgot to salute an officer from another branch, because an eagle's the same across the board.
 
I'm not really sure I understand what happened. What was it that prompted your mother to say she enjoyed being saluted? Was it a random comment, or did she observe somebody not rendering a salute when it was appropriate? Of coure, you mention this lady in the office was a civilian, and thus I don't see how her comments reflect a lack of respect in the military ranks.

As for the other O-5 you saw outdoors, I still don't see what the big deal is that he was carrying something in his right hand so long as he switches hands and salutes when appropriate. Maybe just because I'm a reservist and crew dog, but usually I have way more important things on my mind than to be wrapped around the axle about things that really just don't matter in the grand scheme. (no offense)
No my mother does not expect a salute from a civilian worker on a military base/station. The civilian essentially showed lack of concern for customs/courtesy within the military even after working as a civilian for ~30 years. She should know better and/or chose her words more correctly. My mother has been out of uniform for 20 years. Shes old and salty. She gave a lot serving our nation and if one of the few last perks she enjoys is a salute now and then when entering a military post I don't see the big deal. Fortunately Marine bases still issue DOD vehicle decals. I guarantee you if and when the Corps does not issue DOD decals there would be a crisp honor rendered upon an ID check. Guess we're wired differently.

Maybe in the Corps custom/courtesy is stressed more than other branches. My mother and I were put off by the attitude from the civie worker. She was disdainful and blatenly lacked respect of those who have served. My time in the military was brief. I don't think I am any different than other American because I wore the uniform. I do have respect for all who have worn the uniform honorably, especially those who did 20 plus years, enlisted or commissoned.

As far as it not really meaning anything in the grand scheme I guess the military and country should forego any respect to our flag as well. Whats the big deal with morning and evening colors? Eh, screw it right?

I see more and more of this at sporting events and other public gatherings where children aren't taught proper etiquette in respect to the colors and national anthem.
 
No my mother does not expect a salute from a civilian worker on a military base/station. The civilian essentially showed lack of concern for customs/courtesy within the military even after working as a civilian for ~30 years. She should know better and/or chose her words more correctly. My mother has been out of uniform for 20 years. Shes old and salty. She gave a lot serving our nation and if one of the few last perks she enjoys is a salute now and then when entering a military post I don't see the big deal. Fortunately Marine bases still issue DOD vehicle decals. I guarantee you if and when the Corps does not issue DOD decals there would be a crisp honor rendered upon an ID check. Guess we're wired differently.

Maybe in the Corps custom/courtesy is stressed more than other branches. My mother and I were put off by the attitude from the civie worker. She was disdainful and blatenly lacked respect of those who have served. My time in the military was brief. I don't think I am any different than other American because I wore the uniform. I do have respect for all who have worn the uniform honorably, especially those who did 20 plus years, enlisted or commissoned.

As far as it not really meaning anything in the grand scheme I guess the military and country should forego any respect to our flag as well. Whats the big deal with morning and evening colors? Eh, screw it right?

I see more and more of this at sporting events and other public gatherings where children aren't taught proper etiquette in respect to the colors and national anthem.

So, if I understand you correctly, here's what happened: You and your mom drove to the Los Angeles AFB. She showed her retired O-5 ID card at the guard gate; this guard failed to salue her. Then you two went to the decal office where you came across a civilian employee. Your mom mentioned this fact to the civilian who then gave your mom an attitude about it.

Did you notice whether or not the gate guards were military or civilian? I'm frequently not saluted at Lackland because most of the guards are contractors; they're not required to salute and generally don't. Every now and then it'll be an active duty security policeman, and they salute every time without fail.

Again, I wasn't there so all I have to go by is your posts. But if it was a military SP who let you on the base without saluting, then perhaps the person to raise the issue with would be this individual and/or his supervisor, not a civil servant who has nothing to do with base security operations or protocol. I'm sorry to hear the civilian employee at the decal office doesn't care about military customs and courtesies, but they're entitled to their opinion (as sad as it might be) since they're not subject to the provisions of the UCMJ, and frankly I'm not surprised--many of these people aren't exactly the creme of the crop. If she was rude to you or provided poor customer service, then again address the matter to her and/or her supervisor.

I'm not advocating we stop rendering the proper respects to the flag; I think it's sad that people don't know how to behave properly at sporting events, etc. But some people, we can hold accountable through the UCMJ (military); others we can't hold to the same standard (civilians). Too bad they're sometimes seen as representing our values, but as the cliche goes, a federal civil service employee is like a rocket. If it don't work, you can't fire it.

In the Air Force, we do take these things seriously, and courtesy/respect among military members and especially with respect to the sister services is of paramount importantance (although I can't say we're as rigid as the USMC because that's unlikely the case), but you have to differentiate between those who wear the uniform and those who don't wear the uniform. Your original post was about a lack of respect in the military.
 
No it was not upon driving onto LAXAFB. Most of the time there are non-military sentries posted and now there is 100% ID check, hence no need for vehicle stickers. I was merely sharing an experience with a civilian employee of LAXAFB whom does not understand nor care for customs/courtesies. We were trying to get some forms for my mother. On base, inside a building, non-uniformed.

My rant was about how lack of respect towards others which is lacking in the civilian world (SoCal related?) seems to have carried over to the military. I have always looked up to those in uniform as several in my family have served (comm and non-comm). Through life most of my experiences on military posts have reinforced my view of courtesy and people being polite. From North Carolina to Hawaii this has always been the case. LAX has always been a bit shoddy though. I guess it is the variable.
 
I'm trying to envision how the subject of military customs and courtesies came into the discussion with this civilian to begin with, absent there being an occurance where you observed proper customs and courtesies not being used, when you discovered the lady didn't care about them. Sorry to belabor the point; I wasn't there. In any case, sorry your mother was treated the way she was and hope she is treated with the courtesy she deserves in the future.
 
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