dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Owning your own company isn't quite what I have in mind when I think "desk job." I meant being a 9-5 Monday-Friday worker bee, getting the occasionally 3 day weekend. Just couldn't do it.
Rant from a regional FO!
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Owning your own company isn't quite what I have in mind when I think "desk job." I meant being a 9-5 Monday-Friday worker bee, getting the occasionally 3 day weekend. Just couldn't do it.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
I'm back to flying a desk here at the end of my military career, and I can most sincerely say that almost every day I had flying (outside of the flights on which I experienced heart-stopping terror) were better -- more interesting, more fulfilling -- than the ones I now have (and previously had at the beginning of my career) working at a desk in an office.
I actually love some of my past desk or ground jobs more than flying especially if it was with a commuter/regional. The only flying jobs I loved more than a desk job or ground job were my cargo, business jet, and now big purple job. Many pilots who started their flying careers in the 70's and 80's had desk jobs or ground jobs during their careers in which made them well rounded individual. I have only met a few pilots who never perform a desk or ground job and it showed in their personality. When interviewing for any job the applicant needs to connect with the interviewer or no cigar no matter how much experience you think you have! I always look for well rounded individuals!
n57flyguy
Well-Known Member
Such a great book, I'm due for another read through. Parallels this topic in many regards, and with military experience with you, it relates even more. But we flew 50 missions, right?
"Yossarian, 40 missions is all you have to fly before you can return stateside, as far as 27th Air Force Headquarters is concerned"
"Then I can go home, right? I've got 48 missions!"
"No, you can't go home Yossarian."
"Why not?!?!"
"Because of Catch 22, Yossarian. Catch-22 says you always have to do what your commanding officer legitimately orders you to."
"But, 27th AF says I can go home with 40 missions!!"
"Yes Yosarrian, that is true. But they don't say you have to go home. And regulations do say you have to obey your commanding officers' orders. Thats the catch; even if the Colonel were disobeying a 27th AF order by making you fly more missions, you'd still have to fly them, otherwise you'd be guilty of insubordination for disobeying his orders to you. And then 27th AF would really jump your ass!"
"So...then I really do have to fly 50 missions then....."
"No, Yossarian. 55 missions."
"What?!?! What 55 missions??"
"The 55 missions as of yesterday that the Colonel now wants everyone to fly before they can go home."
cmill
Cold Ass Honky
When I went to the corporate side I was bored out of my mind. If thats all I ever had to look forward to was programming a FMS I would probably get out of aviation. Theres a lot to be said for finding something that gives you fulfillment in life, no matter what it is. I don't see how A to B three times a day is any better than filing TPS reports. I can honestly say I would rather be out in the 100 degree heat dragging a bush hog behind a tractor with a case of beer and a pair of headphones rather than watching the mileage tick down on the pro line.
n57flyguy
Well-Known Member
"Yossarian, 40 missions is all you have to fly before you can return stateside, as far as 27th Air Force Headquarters is concerned"
"Then I can go home, right? I've got 48 missions!"
"No, you can't go home Yossarian."
"Why not?!?!"
"Because of Catch 22, Yossarian. Catch-22 says you always have to do what your commanding officer legitimately orders you to."
"But, 27th AF says I can go home with 40 missions!!"
"Yes Yosarrian, that is true. But they don't say you have to go home. And regulations do say you have to obey your commanding officers' orders. Thats the catch; even if the Colonel were disobeying a 27th AF order by making you fly more missions, you'd still have to fly them, otherwise you'd be guilty of insubordination for disobeying his orders to you. And then 27th AF would really jump your ass!"
"So...then I really do have to fly 50 missions then....."
"No, Yossarian. 55 missions."
"What?!?! What 55 missions??"
"The 55 missions as of yesterday that the Colonel now wants everyone to fly before they can go home."
Funny story, I failed my Junior research project in HS because I tried to explain that very quote. I loved the book, actually read it, but explaining double-think was too confusing apparently. They didn't use it to understand it! I still think I aced the project
jrh
Well-Known Member
Minor point to add: There are more than two kinds of jobs in the world. You don't have to choose between sitting in a cockpit and sitting in a cubicle. You could be a...
Plumber.
Nurse.
Surveyor.
Tour guide.
Law enforcement officer.
Sailing instructor.
Photographer.
Auto mechanic.
Professional skydiver.
Tree trimmer.
College recruiter.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
This is why I say a person shouldn't limit their pay/QOL comparisons to within the aviation industry. They need to look at the big picture of life. No job is perfect, but there are tons of jobs which pay enough to have a comfortable living, offer reasonable job security, don't require annual medical exams, and allow a person to settle in and live pretty much where they want to live. If they get laid off, or decide they want to quit and move to a new location, they can find a similar job with similar pay relatively easily.
That's a far cry from a lot of aviation jobs which act as though you ought to be thankful you have the privilege of coming to work, pay mediocre wages, make you either move around all the time or spend half your life commuting, with no guarantees of anything getting better. Sure, it might get better next year...or you might keep getting boned, over and over for the next 5-15 years. Nobody knows.
I think this is the biggest issue a person needs to be aware of to have a satisfying career as an airline pilot. They need to be 100% comfortable with massive amounts of instability, relative to other professions. If you're ok with gambling a lot of pay/QOL issues over the next 5-15 years of your life, by all means, have at it. It seems as though most of the pilots who walk away are ultimately leaving over the uncertainty that comes along with the profession.
Plumber.
Nurse.
Surveyor.
Tour guide.
Law enforcement officer.
Sailing instructor.
Photographer.
Auto mechanic.
Professional skydiver.
Tree trimmer.
College recruiter.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
This is why I say a person shouldn't limit their pay/QOL comparisons to within the aviation industry. They need to look at the big picture of life. No job is perfect, but there are tons of jobs which pay enough to have a comfortable living, offer reasonable job security, don't require annual medical exams, and allow a person to settle in and live pretty much where they want to live. If they get laid off, or decide they want to quit and move to a new location, they can find a similar job with similar pay relatively easily.
That's a far cry from a lot of aviation jobs which act as though you ought to be thankful you have the privilege of coming to work, pay mediocre wages, make you either move around all the time or spend half your life commuting, with no guarantees of anything getting better. Sure, it might get better next year...or you might keep getting boned, over and over for the next 5-15 years. Nobody knows.
I think this is the biggest issue a person needs to be aware of to have a satisfying career as an airline pilot. They need to be 100% comfortable with massive amounts of instability, relative to other professions. If you're ok with gambling a lot of pay/QOL issues over the next 5-15 years of your life, by all means, have at it. It seems as though most of the pilots who walk away are ultimately leaving over the uncertainty that comes along with the profession.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
I live where I want to live, and even get a ticket to work!
Yes, there is uncertainty, yes, there is instability. Look around at the rest of the economy; this is not specific to aviation. I appreciate that you've put in some time as a professional pilot and decided it wasn't for you, but you briefly worked for a good company, then quit. Please don't take all the regional complaining on this forum as the actual reality of airline life (though, that is indeed part of it).
What people on this forum need to learn is "followthrough." Don't quit while things are crappy at entry-level jobs. They're entry-level for a reason.
Jet
Well-Known Member
So you're saying we shouldn't go to college? Most of those jobs above don't require a 4 year degree. Except for the nurse some of those jobs above require a trade school of about 1 year or less. A lot of my friends from high school that took up a quick trade and didn't go to college, made decent cash right away while the rest of us were broke college students. Not all but a lot of these people were unhappy when they hit 30 and they were complaining about aches and pains in their back from the labor and hit a plateau on pay. They tried to knock the blue off their collars and go back to college but it was too late to take a pay cut now that they had bills, houses, car payments, kids, etc. But if you like what you do and are happy that is all that matters. Also, there is instability everywhere you go. We laid off thousands, yes thousands at my previous desk job. Hell, even government jobs are furloughing these days.
jrh
Well-Known Member
I live where I want to live, and even get a ticket to work!
I'm not gonna lie, that's pretty cool, and I understand why some people are very happy with their jobs.
Very true. But most other jobs don't involve complete life upheaval if something goes wrong. They're not tied to a seniority system which will mean drastic changes in pay, schedule, and/or location if a bankruptcy or merger occurs. Or if the corporate jet gets sold, you might be moving across the country to find a new job.
If you work in a more "common" job like what I listed, you might be looking at hard times for a while, but can probably find something with similar pay within a relatively close geographical region.
I don't. I know there are plenty of happy regional airline pilots and that's great.
I base my opinions mostly on the pilots I knew at 9K, as well as the pilots I met while jumpseating all over the country for a year. Hearing the stories of where they'd been and where they were going, career-wise, was a far greater education than what I'd read here on JC. I concluded I was far more likely to get screwed than have smooth sailing in my career if I stayed with airline flying, so I bounced out sooner rather than later.
For what it's worth, I think airline flying would be an awesome career if even one factor was different. I mean, I don't mind working my ass off and having no stability if I can get paid wheelbarrows full of money to do it. Nor do I mind working for cheap if it's a really fun, easy job all the time. Or I could work hard for mediocre pay if I were guaranteed my location and schedule would be good for as long as I wanted it.
But crappy pay and no promises for the future isn't worth it. Obviously not everybody sees it the way I do, and that's fine. I just sympathize with the people who do.
jrh
Well-Known Member
Well, I didn't really intend to open up that can of worms, but sure.
Only go to college if you need to go to college to do what you want to do.
I went to college and am glad I did. But I also have amazing parents who gave me a great deal of financial support, therefore I came out of school debt free.
Had I racked up $50k, $100k, or more, of debt, I'm quite sure I'd have a different opinion of college's value. The cost versus reward value of college has been skewing in favor of not going in recent years. Blue collar jobs are paying better and white collar jobs aren't paying as well.
The Daily Show had a neat segment on this topic a few weeks ago:
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
There aren't any promises in any field. I remember when I (briefly) worked in car sales; I was having a rough first month, and the sales manager wasn't happy with my progress. He rolled up one afternoon in his golf cart while I was walking the lot and fired my ass on the spot. No seniority, no hearing with a union rep. "Hand over your keys and fuel card, and good luck." Harsh reality in most professions.
The sympathy is misplaced, by the way. You could be sympathetic if you'd stuck around to see the realities for yourself.
jrh
Well-Known Member
True, but I bet you could have found another auto place within 30 miles and a week's time who would've given you a shot at selling on their lot. Or at least found another job with similar pay and schedule to what you had at the dealership, thus resulting in not much chaos in your life. Now, I can't say I'd recommend car sales as a better career than flying, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.
Sympathy wasn't the right word for what I meant. I should've said I agree with them. But then again, that's obvious...of course I agree with people who agree with me.
eightballfreight
Mission accomplished
"Airline Pilot" is an entry level job?
CFI entry level.
Freight required experience.
Airlines requires more experience.
I am Thirty Something with thousands of hours of experience, when can I expect my first non entry level job?
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
JustinS
Well-Known Member
I've been reading these pages over the last few days, but I'm sticking to the quote in my signature. You never know how close you are to something better if you give up now... If you walk away now you might just miss out in the long run...
Expect the worst, hope for the best...
Expect the worst, hope for the best...