Rant from a regional FO!

ATN_Pilot said:
I always find it amusing that the people who say "it's better than flying a desk" are almost universally people who have never actually had a job flying a desk. Having had a couple of them now, I can say without hesitation that a good job flying a desk is infinitely better than a good flying job. But, that's from my perspective. Other people would disagree, because they value layovers in Cancun or Zurich, and they don't consider sleeping in their own bed at home to be a major QOL issue.

My point is that different people value different things. Telling someone that "it's better than flying a desk" may or may not be true. It depends on what the person you're talking to values. And if you haven't experienced both worlds, then it's probably better to not say anything at all, to be honest. I always imagined that a desk job would suck balls, but I was wrong. Until you've been there to get a closer look, you don't really know whether the grass is green or brown on the other side.
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I'm talking about flying a desk for real not flying a desk on pilot dime. Yawn. Let me have it. I'm tired of union people telling me what's good for me when they rarely actually do the job.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I always find it amusing that the people who say "it's better than flying a desk" are almost universally people who have never actually had a job flying a desk. Having had a couple of them now, I can say without hesitation that a good job flying a desk is infinitely better than a good flying job. But, that's from my perspective. Other people would disagree, because they value layovers in Cancun or Zurich, and they don't consider sleeping in their own bed at home to be a major QOL issue.

My point is that different people value different things. Telling someone that "it's better than flying a desk" may or may not be true. It depends on what the person you're talking to values. And if you haven't experienced both worlds, then it's probably better to not say anything at all, to be honest. I always imagined that a desk job would suck balls, but I was wrong. Until you've been there to get a closer look, you don't really know whether the grass is green or brown on the other side.
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This guy... Talking about "having a desk job"... from home. :rolleyes: Or from his family's office. :bounce:
 
Cav said:
Not sure I follow your point. The poster said he knew of no profession that treats entry level employees worse than the piloting profession. I named 3 professional occupations where entry level employees are treated poorly. Of course not every profession does but many do. Pilots love to act like lucrative jobs with great QOL grow on trees. It seems many of these pilots haven't worked outside of aviation because the reality is different than the perception. There's a reason we call it work.
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Knowing some friends and family in the medical and law profession, I completely agree.
 
Having done both desk and flying jobs I'll add my 2¢ worth - any job can be great or awful. By far the biggest determinant is the attitude that you personally bring to it. Period.

Look, there are ALWAYS jobs that are better than the one that you have and jobs that are worse. You can always find flaws in your current situation no matter how good it is, and you can always find the good in what you are doing no matter how much bad there may be. I'm a huge believer that downplaying the bad and accentuating the positive is a huge benefit for your personal well-being. I'm not saying to be blind to the faults, nor that you should ever be fully satisfied and not strive for better, but simply that you shouldn't allow all of those outside factors to affect your happiness.
 
I've worked the desk for years and took a massive pay cut to fly. I won't top my previous desk job salary even after I upgrade but I don't regret leaving for a second. Not having to work 5 days every week and never having to take home or think about my work when I'm off or on vacation is priceless to me.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I always find it amusing that the people who say "it's better than flying a desk" are almost universally people who have never actually had a job flying a desk. Having had a couple of them now, I can say without hesitation that a good job flying a desk is infinitely better than a good flying job. But, that's from my perspective. Other people would disagree, because they value layovers in Cancun or Zurich, and they don't consider sleeping in their own bed at home to be a major QOL issue.

My point is that different people value different things. Telling someone that "it's better than flying a desk" may or may not be true. It depends on what the person you're talking to values. And if you haven't experienced both worlds, then it's probably better to not say anything at all, to be honest. I always imagined that a desk job would suck balls, but I was wrong. Until you've been there to get a closer look, you don't really know whether the grass is green or brown on the other side.
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Regarding perspective, I agree. Having worked in a previous career at a desk job, I absolutely HATED it with a passion. I still remember the meetings about future meetings, Action Items, Deliverables, taking work home, getting emails from bosses when they were on "vacation", me worrying about work related projects while on "vacation", etc.

One of the defining moments of my life was waking up on a Monday morning, wishing it was Fri already. It then dawned on me how jacked up that was... Wishing away days of my life for a crappy two day weekend. It's really sick if you think about it.

I've now been making a living longer as a pilot than as an engineer, and I have ZERO regrets. I'm much happier now, even though my career hasn't progressed nearly as much as I'd hoped. But it's not bad either... I'm a line holder at a quality regional, get a lot of time off, and make enough to live comfortably (as a FO). My girlfriend and I live in one of the nicest areas in the country, I just paid cash for a nice used SUV (I have no debt), and we're planning a bunch of cool hiking and camping trips all over Colorado this summer (she has a lot of time off with her job too). Outside of aviation, I don't know ANYBODY that is doing that. We are lucky, and I try to remember that as often as I can.
 
People, when contemplating professions, will usually imagine themselves at the pinnacle of that imagined profession. This Walter Mittyesque pretend game will help them envision themselves in a given job and I would suspect plays a somewhat significant role in their thinking. Think of people that talk of reincarnation - nobody ever says "In a past life I was the piss-boy to the Royals of France", they'll say something stupid like "I was Joan of Arc" or "I was Napoleon" or something. This is foolish - there are always more piss-boys than Napoleons and not everyone could have been Napoleon. Likewise with jobs - people will imagine what they want to do when they grow up and imagine the brightest, greatest endeavors in any field. They will imagine themselves as Wall Street titans instead of the cubicle dwelling mediocrity akin to Office Space. They will imagine themselves as Gordon Ramsey instead of the guy at McDonald's flipping burgers. They will imagine themselves as FedEx or SWA pilots, flying maybe 10 days per month and making $200k plus per year...not flying around with a sweaty, smelly student in a 150 in Houston summers or flying a load of bull semen somewhere all night in a clapped out Metro.

I would suggest, when evaluating careers, that you go into things with your eyes open and after a period of honest introspection. Numbers, and our own personal observations, tell us that the majority of the human race is made up of mediocrity, or less. An overwhelming majority. An honest look at yourself would probably tell you that you are a mediocrity as well - numbers don't lie. Do you know 10 people personally that are more impressive than you are? Perhaps it makes sense, when perusing JC or other sites, to NOT imagine yourself in the left seat of a purple MD-11, banging exotic foreign chicks on your Asian layovers before flying home to your Porsche, etc for your 20 days off per month. Perhaps imagine yourself stuck in the middle or lower end of a given field, which is the most likely result. Then evaluating these alternatives, pick the one that you think would make you less likely to put a gun in your mouth. Just a word of advice.
 
To the original poster, have you thought about getting a part 135 gig? No commuting, starting pay is generally better than regional FO pay.. I haven't kept up with all the replies, I apologize if this has been mentioned.
 
block30 said:
To the original poster, have you thought about getting a part 135 gig? No commuting, starting pay is generally better than regional FO pay.. I haven't kept up with all the replies, I apologize if this has been mentioned.
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If it's quality of life he's looking for, tread carefully. Having done both, 121 typically scores much higher in that area. The pay in most (certainly not all) 135 ops is not that great. Once past first year pay at a decent regional, your pay will (usually) continue to surpass entry level 135. Pilots are absolutely awful at looking at the big picture. You must consider your total compensation within a five year window. I've actually had CFIs snidely remark how much more they make than regional pilots to justify staying put. Apparently they are unable to understand that over a five year window that will cost them $50,000 or more. Not to mention the high cost of lacking experience for future opportunities...

As far as no commuting, well... That's because you MUST live in base for 135! You are certainly allowed to live in base for 121, but you have the OPTION of commuting if you want to live elsewhere.
 
The OP makes a good point. Life as a regional FO is miserable.

Most of the responses here have been for the OP to suck it up and welcome to the club. But why does it have to suck so bad? Because people are willing to endure the suck. Until that changes the airlines will continue to supply plenty of suck.

Why are we willing to endure the suck? Because we love to fly. We put up with so much BS just to be able to fly.

I stopped putting up with the copious amounts of BS after a year at a regional. I hated it so much I wasn't even enjoying the flying anymore. It wasn't for me so I left. I realized that I enjoyed the freedom of flying GA and being an instructor.

After all, flying is about freedom, and there's no freedom in 121 flying.
 
I'm a regional FO, been doing it for a year and a half now and my life isn't miserable. My QOL is quite good as a matter of fact. Could it be better? Sure. But the same could be said for anyone else's job.
 
TheFlyingTurkey said:
The OP makes a good point. Life as a regional FO is miserable.

Most of the responses here have been for the OP to suck it up and welcome to the club. But why does it have to suck so bad? Because people are willing to endure the suck. Until that changes the airlines will continue to supply plenty of suck.

Why are we willing to endure the suck? Because we love to fly. We put up with so much BS just to be able to fly.

I stopped putting up with the copious amounts of BS after a year at a regional. I hated it so much I wasn't even enjoying the flying anymore. It wasn't for me so I left. I realized that I enjoyed the freedom of flying GA and being an instructor.

After all, flying is about freedom, and there's no freedom in 121 flying.
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Again, not all regionals are equal. It amuses me when somebody that worked at a garbage regional for 10 months claims "All regionals are crappy!" Uh, no. Not in my experience. Like any industry, every company is different. Great Lakes vs. Horizon? Both fly turboprops... And that's about it for similarities. Maybe you worked at a good one, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
I like how "desk job" is a singular thing. As in, if there's a desk involved, they are all the same miserable job.
 
WacoFan said:
People, when contemplating professions, will usually imagine themselves at the pinnacle of that imagined profession. This Walter Mittyesque pretend game will help them envision themselves in a given job and I would suspect plays a somewhat significant role in their thinking. Think of people that talk of reincarnation - nobody ever says "In a past life I was the piss-boy to the Royals of France", they'll say something stupid like "I was Joan of Arc" or "I was Napoleon" or something. This is foolish - there are always more piss-boys than Napoleons and not everyone could have been Napoleon. Likewise with jobs - people will imagine what they want to do when they grow up and imagine the brightest, greatest endeavors in any field. They will imagine themselves as Wall Street titans instead of the cubicle dwelling mediocrity akin to Office Space. They will imagine themselves as Gordon Ramsey instead of the guy at McDonald's flipping burgers. They will imagine themselves as FedEx or SWA pilots, flying maybe 10 days per month and making $200k plus per year...not flying around with a sweaty, smelly student in a 150 in Houston summers or flying a load of bull semen somewhere all night in a clapped out Metro.

I would suggest, when evaluating careers, that you go into things with your eyes open and after a period of honest introspection. Numbers, and our own personal observations, tell us that the majority of the human race is made up of mediocrity, or less. An overwhelming majority. An honest look at yourself would probably tell you that you are a mediocrity as well - numbers don't lie. Do you know 10 people personally that are more impressive than you are? Perhaps it makes sense, when perusing JC or other sites, to NOT imagine yourself in the left seat of a purple MD-11, banging exotic foreign chicks on your Asian layovers before flying home to your Porsche, etc for your 20 days off per month. Perhaps imagine yourself stuck in the middle or lower end of a given field, which is the most likely result. Then evaluating these alternatives, pick the one that you think would make you less likely to put a gun in your mouth. Just a word of advice.
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Was going to respond to this with "duh," but realized I'm out of touch and people might actually need this advice.
 
TheFlyingTurkey said:
The OP makes a good point. Life as a regional FO is miserable.

Most of the responses here have been for the OP to suck it up and welcome to the club. But why does it have to suck so bad? Because people are willing to endure the suck. Until that changes the airlines will continue to supply plenty of suck.

Why are we willing to endure the suck? Because we love to fly. We put up with so much BS just to be able to fly.

I stopped putting up with the copious amounts of BS after a year at a regional. I hated it so much I wasn't even enjoying the flying anymore. It wasn't for me so I left. I realized that I enjoyed the freedom of flying GA and being an instructor.

After all, flying is about freedom, and there's no freedom in 121 flying.
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First bolded part is indeed truth. It shouldn't have to suck, but it does in many ways, with a big part of the problem being that there's always some guys out there willing to do the job for less....even for free in some cases. Airline CEOs in general know this, and well take advantage of it at the lower end regional operators.

Which leads to the second bolded paragraph. In any job, you have two buckets: a fun bucket, and a BS bucket. Whichever one begins overflowing first, will be the one which should make you decide what you need to do next in order to be happy; to work to live vice living to work, etc. There came a time in the active duty AF many years ago where my BS bucket was overflowing, while the fun bucket was only about 20% full and beginning to spring leaks. So, I left. I wasn't happy, the job wasn't fun, the many hours of BS and idiocy that had to be endured for 14-16 hours a day wasn't at all worth the few hours a week that I got to fly a fighter jet; and even the fighter jet flying was more work than it was fun...with briefs/debriefs, the missions themselves, the time invested for little return in life. So, it was fun, there were nice times, but I'll leave this crap to some other nitwit to bother with. And the final straw was when I put in my papers to leave because I couldn't work an assignment location I wanted, I was called into my commander's office and asked "You've put in your papers? Have you put any thought into service before self?"

Service before self? What do you think Ive been doing this whole time? Ive spent much of my life trying to work for this country and spend time away fighting its neverending wars; all I earned was a divorce; so it's high time I started working to save myself, to do things for me.

Much like what Capt Yossarian said in Catch 22:

"When I look up, I see people cashing in. I don't see heaven or saints or angels. I see people cashing in on every decent impulse and every human tragedy..... What upsets me is that they think Im a sucker. They think that they're smart, and the rest of us are dumb. And you know, the thought occurs to me right now, for the first time, that maybe they're right..."
 
TheFlyingTurkey said:
The OP makes a good point. Life as a regional FO is miserable.

Most of the responses here have been for the OP to suck it up and welcome to the club. But why does it have to suck so bad? Because people are willing to endure the suck. Until that changes the airlines will continue to supply plenty of suck.

Why are we willing to endure the suck? Because we love to fly. We put up with so much BS just to be able to fly.

I stopped putting up with the copious amounts of BS after a year at a regional. I hated it so much I wasn't even enjoying the flying anymore. It wasn't for me so I left. I realized that I enjoyed the freedom of flying GA and being an instructor.

After all, flying is about freedom, and there's no freedom in 121 flying.
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In the short term, junior regional FO does suck. But I think most people are trying to make the point of "yes, it does. But it gets better and eventually becomes worth the struggle.

Most jobs suck on an entry level. But people nowadays feel they deserve hundreds of thousands of dollars just for showing up. Any bit of adversity results in a dramatic freak out because "I deserve this." Stand by a set of stairs in a public place and you will quickly see what I mean.

I deserve more than I get for doing the job I do. Not because I'm an airline pilot, but because I'm a DAMN good one. That's where the hard work is. Just getting here, that's the easy part and doesn't entitle you to a damn thing.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I always find it amusing that the people who say "it's better than flying a desk" are almost universally people who have never actually had a job flying a desk. Having had a couple of them now, I can say without hesitation that a good job flying a desk is infinitely better than a good flying job. But, that's from my perspective. Other people would disagree, because they value layovers in Cancun or Zurich, and they don't consider sleeping in their own bed at home to be a major QOL issue.

My point is that different people value different things. Telling someone that "it's better than flying a desk" may or may not be true. It depends on what the person you're talking to values. And if you haven't experienced both worlds, then it's probably better to not say anything at all, to be honest. I always imagined that a desk job would suck balls, but I was wrong. Until you've been there to get a closer look, you don't really know whether the grass is green or brown on the other side.
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That's more of a personal taste thing. I've done desk stuff and it's not for me. I love my office and don't mind being on the road.
 
cezzna said:
Six pages of existential flying debate.

The SJS, Ray-Bans, Citizen Sky hawk, and epaulettes aren't worth shnikes anymore.

We all wanna go back and bitch slap our inner sky wench, but whadda ya gonna do?

Make that Seminole your bitch and apply for food stamps......
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Why all the hate on citizen skyhawk watches? I have seen numerous people on this board hate on them, and it really doesn't make any sense. I don't have one because "ohhh I am a pilot, I gotta have one of those fancy pilot watches" I just honestly think it is a nice watch and I honestly like the functionality of it. I just have never understood all the hate.

As for the OP...never trust recruiters, explore your options, never lose hope.


Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk
 
Cav said:
I'm talking about flying a desk for real not flying a desk on pilot dime. Yawn. Let me have it. I'm tired of union people telling me what's good for me when they rarely actually do the job.
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And I'm tired of people who have never actually had the full-time union job thinking it's such a wonderful gig. If it's so wonderful, step right up! Let's see what you think after a couple of years of it.

But I'm not just talking about the union gig. I run a real estate business. Far more rewarding than flying from Point A to Point B three times a day. But again, that's just for me. Others would be bored to death or frustrated out of their minds doing what I do with tenants and property owners. My point was, and remains, that no one should be telling some guy that "it's better than a desk job" when the reality is that a lot of people really would be happier with the desk job.
 
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