RAH management says no to extending FO pay rates

[Polar742]

I don't know anything about IBT, I haven't worked under an IBT contract with IBT representation, so my opinion about IBT is worthless. Todd hasn't either, IIRC.... so, why bother worrying about his opinion about your union?

He was an IBT member when he worked at Gulfstream International Airlines.

Just as I was for 9 years at RAH, and am now at PO.

What does bother me, is neither union is perfect, and the IBT is full of faults. Probably too many to list here. My issue is the halo painted about ALPA, and the false image given that there is no contest in between the two unions.

ALPA has it's pluses, among which are the personal legal and medical assistance.

IBT has provided me with a great scope clause, that my MEC negotiated while fighting the Local, at CHQ.

Unfortunately, we got drug over to IBT by a lot of false pretenses, and into a local that is well on it's way to bankruptcy. Many of the issues presented to the membership during the vote, turned out to be nothing but a sales pitch.

I am proud of neither national, and the facts support that position.

Unfortunately, until the individual pilots stand up and give their MECs power, and the MECs use that power to affect the necessary changes, nothing will change no matter who your dues flow to in DC.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

He was an IBT member when he worked at Gulfstream International Airlines.

Just as I was for 9 years at RAH, and am now at PO.

What does bother me, is neither union is perfect, and the IBT is full of faults. Probably too many to list here. My issue is the halo painted about ALPA, and the false image given that there is no contest in between the two unions.

ALPA has it's pluses, among which are the personal legal and medical assistance.

IBT has provided me with a great scope clause, that my MEC negotiated while fighting the Local, at CHQ.

Unfortunately, we got drug over to IBT by a lot of false pretenses, and into a local that is well on it's way to bankruptcy. Many of the issues presented to the membership during the vote, turned out to be nothing but a sales pitch.

I am proud of neither national, and the facts support that position.

Unfortunately, until the individual pilots stand up and give their MECs power, and the MECs use that power to affect the necessary changes, nothing will change no matter who your dues flow to in DC.

I talked to Seggy about this - the problem with "standing up" is the politics. Like I said earlier, I've gotten the "don't complain, volunteer", then the cold shoulder when attempting (at first).... among explanations I got was "how do we really know you're dedicated to volunteering if we don't make it hard for you to do so".... my personal opinion is, that the more people we have, the better we'll be.... and to get more, make it easy as possible.... if we hadn't have had internet voting with the auto-login feature, Pinnacle would NEVER have gotten 91% turnout for the TA vote... I fielded many many questions on how to login to the auto-login system.... imagine if they'd had to know their password to the ALPA site.... that would have been terrible!

When I see candidates with "extensive experience as LEC blah blah", I am turned off - we're all here to learn so I don't want the guy who's comfortable, I want the guy who actually will put my ideas out there.

Don't drink managements OR ALPA's koolaid... "ASA +1" my butt! (Union reps loved parading this around before we actually SAW the contract).

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Since we have a small company, I know for a fact the guys that signed our contract negotiated it. They may have had help gathering data or whatnot from ALPA, but they negotiated it. If you'd like to get in touch with the guy that negotiated our 1999 contract and is one of the negotiators for this combined contract, I'll provide his email to you so you can ask him face to face. Quite honestly, he is one of the smartest people I know, and I'd hate to be sitting across the table from him.

Pilots always negotiate contracts under the ALPA structure, but they also have professional negotiators with them at the table. Please speak to the guy you're talking about, and he'll tell you the same. He wasn't at the table by himself, he had a Contract Administrator (professional negotiator) with him to assist. ALPA allows you to use this assistance at whatever level you choose. You can have him there just to provide advice in caucus, or you can have him take the lead and negotiate the whole deal for you. It's the NC's choice, but the help is there.

Did Mesa have a professional negotiator? How about the TSA contract that those are living under? How about the PCL contract that is being amended? Did you have a professional negotiator for that?

Yes, professional negotiators were provided to all of the above. Were they properly utilized? Well, that's subjective, but I would tend to say "no" in the above examples. The help of a professional negotiator is invaluable, but you have to utilize the help in order for it to be useful. You also need a strong MEC that will provide the proper direction to the NC, which will then provide direction to the professional negotiator.

You can believe or not believe as your heart desires. Just show me another organization, right now, that has the ability to bring all the flying under one scope clause.

It's just one organization. That's it. Can you find it? I'm not talking about what XYZ's pilots are considering or what they are proposing or not acting on. I'm looking for an organization that is currently acting to bring all the brand's flying onto one list.

Pinnacle and Colgan are both working on this. The PCL TA contained a mechanism for it.

 

[Polar742]

Pinnacle and Colgan are both working on this. The PCL TA contained a mechanism for it.

They're bringing ALL flying (not just commuter) under one contract?

Because if you're talking about at the commuters, that was done SIX (6) years ago. I can't seem to remember the name. Do you think you could help me out on that one?

See...it's a fun game, this tit-for-tat.

Yes, professional negotiators were provided to all of the above. Were they properly utilized? Well, that's subjective, but I would tend to say "no" in the above examples. The help of a professional negotiator is invaluable, but you have to utilize the help in order for it to be useful. You also need a strong MEC that will provide the proper direction to the NC, which will then provide direction to the professional negotiator.

So what you are saying is that the LOCALS are provided the DATA, and the LOCAL's Negotiators actually negotiate the contract? Is that correct? Because if it is, then your argument about the invaluable professional negotiator seems to hold little water, as the example airlines, such as the one you worked at, had sub-standard contracts.

 

[DavCo]

I'm telling you guys....somebody needs to give BB and his team a reality check....and it needs to come from us. Obviously the IBT can't even get the company to follow the current contract.

NMB cards are coming soon....we gotta quit this crap.

I'm extremely glad to see someone standing up and taking action. As pilots, we need to fight this downward spiral that is our career. Our union has gone to the NMB at least 3 times... BRING THE HEAT!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

They're bringing ALL flying (not just commuter) under one contract?

I'm not even sure what you mean by "just commuter." It would have brought all flying under one seniority list, yes.

So what you are saying is that the LOCALS are provided the DATA, and the LOCAL's Negotiators actually negotiate the contract? Is that correct?

No, it's not. What I'm saying is that it has been done both ways. Some NCs have chosen to give all authority to the professional negotiator, allowing him to actually bargain the agreement, and then the NC merely acted as managers and advisors. In other cases, the NCs have chosen to take the lead and only use the pro as an advisor. In most cases, a blended approach is utilized, with the pro taking the lead on certain items, or participating as an equal member of the team. The choice of how to use the pro is up to each NC, and there is an infinite number of options. The key is that you have the options, because you have the pro.

Because if it is, then your argument about the invaluable professional negotiator seems to hold little water, as the example airlines, such as the one you worked at, had sub-standard contracts.

You can hire the world's greatest chef, but if you don't give him access to food and a kitchen, he can't make you a great meal. The same holds true here. The resources are available to you, but if you don't let them do their jobs, then the resources don't help you. But the difference between ALPA and other unions is that the resources are available. It's just up to you to use them.

 

[Polar742]

Here's the deal, Todd.

You approach the debate with the "ALPA can do no wrong" philosophy, except you'll throw out a few inconsequential "gimmes" to seem from being so obviously one sided.

What you won't admit is that there is not a solid connection between ALPA and the other unions. It's not like you push the other unions down, and magically ALPA rises above the murk. It's not a teeter-totter or a balance scale.

There are times all the unions have done equally good things, and equally crappy things.

I'm by no means an IBT sympathizer, nor fan. Just the same for ALPA. It's a strictly business relationship.

As much as one can want what they don't have, you have to play the game with the cards you're dealt.

While it would be good if we could all hold hands around the campfire and sing kum-bah-yah, it's not gonna happen. ALPA-on-ALPA beatdowns have, and will continue, to occur. Things like J4J, trickle up-flush back and other ways to crap on guys lower on the ladder than their predecessors will continue when times are tough.

Every single one of us who "paid our dues" know what this is like. Whether we bought a job at Gulfstream to get ahead, or just got lucky and got hired low time, we have all been crapped on in one way or another. The crapping was done by those who were previously in our position, and now "got theirs" and forgot what it's like to live hand to mouth.

That, my friend, knows no political or union bounds.

As for union contracts that you like to spout about, I'll say that I've seen terrible example from ALPA as well. Whether they have professional negotiators or not. The CBA is the end result, as well as enforcement of such. When the end result is positive, that's great!!

The thing is, different formulas make a champion cake (to steal your "cook" reference). Another thing is look at any winning team. They all achieve the ultimate level of success of high performance. However, one can try to imitate or duplicate, but there are unique things that make a winner or a success. You seem to fail to realize that.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Here's the deal, Todd.

You approach the debate with the "ALPA can do no wrong" philosophy, except you'll throw out a few inconsequential "gimmes" to seem from being so obviously one sided.

Not at all. I simply choose not to emphasize the negative, because it serves no purpose. ALPA isn't perfect, but it's by far the best we've got. Let's make it better rather than trying to tear it down.

What you won't admit is that there is not a solid connection between ALPA and the other unions. It's not like you push the other unions down, and magically ALPA rises above the murk. It's not a teeter-totter or a balance scale.

Never said it was. I just want all pilots to have the best representation possible, and that's ALPA.

 

[Polar742]

Not at all. I simply choose not to emphasize the negative, because it serves no purpose. ALPA isn't perfect, but it's by far the best we've got. Let's make it better rather than trying to tear it down.

Never said it was. I just want all pilots to have the best representation possible, and that's ALPA.

That's an interesting view. You only focus on the positive for ALPA, yet only the faults of the others.

How do you make it better if you can't look at it objectively and see what the problems are?

ALPA WAS a great organizations that DID great things to enhance the profession from many angles.

Now, just like many other places, the leaders have surrounded themselves with "YES" men, and won't make the tough decisions.

Even people like you, who are aspiring to be the next generation of leaders fail in the same areas.

No one I have seen has stood up and demonstrated leadership. All I see are a bunch of Kool-Aid drinkers that are more inspired to talk about what was, and holding onto yesterday. Not identifying and addressing the problems of today, and fixing the wrongs that lead to alot of the problems.

So instead of continuing being part of the problem, why not be part of the answer?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

That's an interesting view. You only focus on the positive for ALPA, yet only the faults of the others.

How do you make it better if you can't look at it objectively and see what the problems are?

I do look objectively and try to fix the problems, but that should be done internally, not out in public view of management, governments, etc... Airing dirty laundry is not productive. Problems must be fixed from within, and those of us that care about making ALPA better are doing just that. Slinging mud from the outside accomplishes nothing.

ALPA WAS a great organizations that DID great things to enhance the profession from many angles.

No, ALPA IS a great organization that IS doing great things.

Now, just like many other places, the leaders have surrounded themselves with "YES" men, and won't make the tough decisions.

Do you speak from experience? Do you know these leaders? Their supposed "yes men?" What have you personally seen from the inside that would lead you to believe that this is the case? I've certainly seen nothing of the sort.

So instead of continuing being part of the problem, why not be part of the answer?

I am part of the answer. Are you?

 

[Polar742]

I do look objectively and try to fix the problems, but that should be done internally, not out in public view of management, governments, etc... Airing dirty laundry is not productive. Problems must be fixed from within, and those of us that care about making ALPA better are doing just that. Slinging mud from the outside accomplishes nothing.

No, ALPA IS a great organization that IS doing great things.

Well, you and I will disagree on that because I have yet to see anything written by you that takes an objective look at the union.

Dirty laundry is one thing, blatantly obvious issues are another. When every pilot agrees on a certain set of problems, be it scope, work rules or various safety issues, I'd say those are pretty obvious problems.

So, I don't see where you get your "slinging mud from the outside accomplishes nothing". Especially when you are at the forefront of that behavior when it is different unions.

Do you speak from experience? Do you know these leaders? Their supposed "yes men?" What have you personally seen from the inside that would lead you to believe that this is the case? I've certainly seen nothing of the sort.

Do I speak from experience? Probably not.

See, that was a use of sarcasm.

Let's start one by one.

Yes, I speak from experience. I have pointed out my experiences in other posts.

Do I know these leaders?

Do I golf with them? No. Do I know what kind of liquor they like, or their wives or kids names? No.

Quite frankly I don't care.

What I do care about is when they violate my scope clause and submit a list to try to hold on to members that want to leave.

What I do care about is them getting agreements passed that usurp an established seniority system.

What I do care about is a continued erosion of scope they allow to occur.

Their supposed "yes men?" What have you personally seen from the inside that would lead you to believe that this is the case? I've certainly seen nothing of the sort.

If you will take a minute and re-read what I've quoted, I hope you can see the irony in your statements.

That is a statement straight from the Kool-Aid Factory.

YOU are the omni-present "leader" from ALPA on here. You like to tout your achievements and all that you do for the organization.

However, you need to learn to do what I've suggested. First, look objectively at the association, which you refuse to do. If in fact that you can objectively survey the organization, you refuse to discuss anything you find.

Management by withholding knowledge, or by saying "trust me, I'm smarter than you" in more words, is a poor way to engage a loyal following.

I've seen you write on this board, as well as others.

I've also studied great leaders that I will never be able to emulate.

Your posts do not exude the leadership that will change things. Sorry.

I am part of the answer. Are you?

Besides being a patronizing question, I am.

You can ask me what committees I belong to.

You can ask what I've done at both companies I've worked at.

Unfortunately, I wasn't off probation when I was no longer ALPA. However, my support of MY pilot group at the local level is unwavering.

If you'd like to question my loyalty to my pilot group, you can do that to my face, because I don't take lightly the insinuation that I am anything but.

 

[727to7400]

Polar...

My compliments on a well reasoned response. Each of us wants what's best for our pilot groups and as a whole.

Blind faith and fealty are the recipe for failure. Just as refusing to air dirty laundry. Just as in government, sunshine and bright lights on problems are what bring about change for the good.

If we are to assume that ALPA is the only viable pilots union in terms of representation, we would have to also accept that we'd still be driving Model T's. Henry Ford gave us a choice; horses or cars. And we could have any color as long as it was black.

Obviously, others learned and made changes and improved technologies. Just as the auto industry changed, some union's have evolved and some have not. IBT's warts are legendary, however one must also acknowledge that they have been aired very publicly and the way they conduct themselves is different today than the past.

Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." His point was that if you don't change and adapt, you are going to repeat the mistakes you made before. You brought up some sound examples in a previous post and in doing so posed the question; "what has changed?"

That's the question to be answered by both sides. Are you moving forward or resting on the past? What are you doing to support all members of the profession, regardless of the union card in their pocket? Or lack thereof?

If the answer is that you are reaching out to all, regardless of affiliation, across lines and across industries, then you have learned well; that we are all employees and should support each other. If you only support your own and tell others they must join you or face persecution for failing to do so, then the words of Santayana offer a glimpse into the future.

As to one of your other concerns, each union and local in the US is required to file an LM-2 report which details the finances of the union. According to the 2008 LM-2; the latest on file, your local is far from being in any kind of financial trouble. They have over 4.7 million in publicly reported assets and that was before the local membership doubled. (which obviously increased dues revenues) With additional ABX crewmembers coming back very soon, you won't need to worry about them running out of money.

It's also important to remember that IBT rules are explicit that of the dues revenue collected, only .22% of the 1.56 base dues rate goes to the International for the services they provide...the rest stays with the pilot group and is accounted for to the penny. With ALPA...and this is not a flame, but a fact...dues revenues go to National and are pooled, then doled out. They control the purse strings.

That's called "leverage."

 

[falconvalley]

It's also important to remember that IBT rules are explicit that of the dues revenue collected, only .22% of the 1.56 base dues rate goes to the International for the services they provide...the rest stays with the pilot group and is accounted for to the penny. With ALPA...and this is not a flame, but a fact...dues revenues go to National and are pooled, then doled out. They control the purse strings.

That's called "leverage."

Great point. Shows how you get what you play for. IBT has provided little more than a bill to me in a year and a half. I was barely off probation at ALPA when they helped me find a new job. IBT? Just a bill. Both look the same (sometimes crappy, sometimes good) to me when I'm thinking of support for everyday matters. But when it comes to support when things aren't going so well, ALPA provided what I paid for. IBT asked for money and ignored me after that.

 

[surreal1221]

Great point. Shows how you get what you play for. IBT has provided little more than a bill to me in a year and a half. I was barely off probation at ALPA when they helped me find a new job. IBT? Just a bill. Both look the same (sometimes crappy, sometimes good) to me when I'm thinking of support for everyday matters. But when it comes to support when things aren't going so well, ALPA provided what I paid for. IBT asked for money and ignored me after that.

Well, they do owe the AFL-CIO a nice penny for unpaid dues. Gotta get it out of their members (and ex-members) some way right?

 

[727to7400]

Great point. Shows how you get what you play for. IBT has provided little more than a bill to me in a year and a half. I was barely off probation at ALPA when they helped me find a new job. IBT? Just a bill. Both look the same (sometimes crappy, sometimes good) to me when I'm thinking of support for everyday matters. But when it comes to support when things aren't going so well, ALPA provided what I paid for. IBT asked for money and ignored me after that.

Just out of curiosity, what timeframe and what airline?

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Well, you and I will disagree on that because I have yet to see anything written by you that takes an objective look at the union.

You should have asked me while we were out in Vegas. I would have been more than happy to talk about it frankly with you. I won't, however, air dirty laundry on a public forum. Sorry, but that's simply not appropriate.

What I do care about is a continued erosion of scope they allow to occur.

Look at your fellow pilots when you want to assign blame for that. ALPA doesn't ratify contracts; pilots do.

Well, they do owe the AFL-CIO a nice penny for unpaid dues. Gotta get it out of their members (and ex-members) some way right?

Notice that he ignores your question. He won't even acknowledge the unbelievable action that the IBT took in stiffing the AFL-CIO for millions of dollars in dues. I guess he thinks that the truth will disappear if he simply ignores it.

 

[Polar742]

You should have asked me while we were out in Vegas. I would have been more than happy to talk about it frankly with you. I won't, however, air dirty laundry on a public forum. Sorry, but that's simply not appropriate.

I was in Vegas to meet, greet, drink beer and chase my wife around the hotel room naked, not talk union politics.

Again, I'll say this. Discussing faults of a member-driven organization like, say, a union, is fine. I don't see where that's an inappropriate airing of dirty laundry. However, YOU do a fine job of airing OTHER organization's dirty laundry on a public forum.

Wait, I don't think

Notice that he ignores your question. He won't even acknowledge the unbelievable action that the IBT took in stiffing the AFL-CIO for millions of dollars in dues. I guess he thinks that the truth will disappear if he simply ignores it.

is airing dirty laundry, is it? I mean because if it is, that might make you a hypocrite.

Anyone who feels that it's inappropriate shows me that they: are in denial about any faults discussed, refuse to believe an organization has faults, is trying to hide the faults, thinks the average member is too dense to see the faults, or has no solutions to fix the faults.

I don't know, nor do I care which of the above apply to you. What I do know is you don't have the confidence to address any perceived faults, only to equate them to a tabloid-style smear campaign with the weight of who Jennifer Anniston is dating this week.

Moving on....

To address the faults of the IBT

Here's the short version, because the 9 years at RAH would just take too much typing.

Just about 12 months ago, we switched union affiliations from ALPA to IBT.

The campaign was full of, ahem, bunk.

Let's begin.

The group that just happened to pop up (yeah right) made some promises. To keep this succinct, I'll just write what they said, then follow that up with where we're at today.

1) We will have our own local within 12 months.

During the election, a memo was put out by the International giving a 18-36 month window after joining the IBT prior to being given the opportunity to decide to vote for our own local.

2) We will have a contract by August '09.

OK, no sane person would believe that within 12 months a group could a) switch unions b) organize and administrate their own local while c) negotiating a contract. It's not impossible, but after talking to the "grassroots effort leader", there was barely enough organization to even make the union switch. No strategic planning was done.

3) We will have the same level of medical and legal representation as ALPA.

I'm not sure on that, as I haven't heard first hand of either process being used.

So, that's that.

Further, from a member of the Local Executive Board, the local is having a hard time paying the mortgage on the Local building.

A grievance won by our FEs was tossed by the union because it "had no merit". Uh, it was already won.

I'd go on, but you can obviously see that the IBT has its faults in this snapshot.

I insist on being fair, because I'm not a fan of either one.

 

[falconvalley]

Well, they do owe the AFL-CIO a nice penny for unpaid dues. Gotta get it out of their members (and ex-members) some way right?

Big surprise! They couldn't find us till we were furloughed and owed them money and they also owe money! Well, they do have a show to run, you know? In all fairness, they don't control the money flow as much as ALPA does, but it's their lack of control that actually scares me. They had no idea what was going on and I think they still don't. That's why I can't stand IBT. They are clueless and don't care that they are as long as the money is coming in. They come "cheap" (if you will) and don't give a crap what you do until you say you're thinking of firing them. That's the problem. HELLO, you're supposed to support us! That's a deal breaker for me. A lot of folks think they should get another chance. I say why? They failed at the one thing that they had to get right. That means they basically got a few years of their share of dues for FREE. Another chance? If my vote made the difference the answer would be NO.

Just out of curiosity, what timeframe and what airline?

I started at Skyway under ALPA in November 06 and left in March 08, when they had a month left of flying. I started at RAH under IBT in March 08 and was furloughed in September 08. Didn't see a single form of correspondence from IBT until weeks before my last day of work. Like I said, it was a bill. Nobody visited us in training and I had no clue what was expected of me. Got the letter and thought great...something and they just wanted money. No support, whatsoever. I found out through word of mouth about the local website and all furloughs get from them is "we're working on it" and "we asked about recalls and the company says "No"". Ok...that's it? No it's not there's also "more to come later" and "we aren't privy to discussing this yet". I understand that some information needs to be protected, but the year and a half I've been watching the IBT and MEC work together with the company, it's been nothing but sudden displacements and creative interpretation of the contract. I really hope the arbitrators involved don't have an interest in being pathetically sympathetic towards a company that makes a profit and allows an inept union to fail, all while loving every minute of it!

 

[wheelsup]

When ALPA secretaries make more money than an ALPA captain you know somebody dropped the ball.

 

[surreal1221]

When ALPA secretaries make more money than an ALPA captain you know somebody dropped the ball.

Perhaps, but they have something most pilot groups lack - leverage. Oh and no RLA.

And I imagine most captains at any mainline are making more than the basic secretary at ALPA national.