Radical innovation from Boeing engineering dept

[mastermags]

Yeah, it appears that a lot of people here know nothing about a lot of things. Luckily, there are a lot of great people here that are pretty smart, and aren't constantly whining about something or insulting others.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

@Avgirl you're a pretty lame troll... you're conducting your boyfriend's research, you're looking into dispatching, you have a beef with a major US corporation for their treatment of your beloved Middle Eastern carrier. Now you show you don't understand airline economics. I can tell you I know I don't, but I've heard enough about it in 10 years at the airlines to sniff out BS. Perhaps your 10 posts per day would be better served as learning about the industry rather than pontificating mindlessly.

 

[Screaming_Emu]

I wished/hope the 747-8 catches on.

I wonder how much of a difference it would have made if Boeing fully adapted the airplane to not rely on bleed air just like the 787. Probably would lose the common type rating, but I would imagine losing 4 engines worth of bleed loading would lead to some efficiency gains.

 

[Avgirl]

@Avgirl you're a pretty lame troll... you're conducting your boyfriend's research, you're looking into dispatching, you have a beef with a major US corporation for their treatment of your beloved Middle Eastern carrier. Now you show you don't understand airline economics. I can tell you I know I don't, but I've heard enough about it in 10 years at the airlines to sniff out BS. Perhaps your 10 posts per day would be better served as learning about the industry rather than pontificating mindlessly.

Really? You are delusional. I don't have a beef with any U.S. Corporations...and I have never traveled to the Middle East and therefore, don't have a beloved carrier. I am fully aware of economics, fuel efficiency, physics, and revenue management. Most jobs are about maximizing revenue. It is what makes the World go around. I have been to Delta TechOps and have seen what they are doing to accomplish that in all of their planes. It is actually fascinating how a dinkier seat can be more comfortable. But, kudos to the people that found a way

 

[bimmerphile]

This is frustrating as an American.

Whats the problem? Airplanes are bound by the laws of physics so why spend a billion dollars on a new plane that might go Mach.001 faster, fly 500 feet higher, and 200 nm further? This is the new norm; new engines, avionics, and cram some more seats in. Nothing else makes sense.

Yeah, economics are important and all, but I just figured in PRESENT_YEAR aerospace would be a little further along than stapling seats into the back of a pre-existing product that moseys along at .84

"back when I was a kid, we had supersonic transport category airplanes"

 

[Avgirl]

T

I wished/hope the 747-8 catches on.

I wonder how much of a difference it would have made if Boeing fully adapted the airplane to not rely on bleed air just like the 787. Probably would lose the common type rating, but I would imagine losing 4 engines worth of bleed loading would lead to some efficiency gains.

This was in Bloomberg last week. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-4-billion-deal-with-russian-firm-to-save-747

 

[Cazadores]

I wished/hope the 747-8 catches on.

I wonder how much of a difference it would have made if Boeing fully adapted the airplane to not rely on bleed air just like the 787. Probably would lose the common type rating, but I would imagine losing 4 engines worth of bleed loading would lead to some efficiency gains.

Saw the LH retro painted 747-8 in LA a few weeks ago. It really is a beautiful airplane. There is just something about a 747, class, beauty, adventure. something the A380 never had.

 

[Plata]

For those who feel Boeing is copping out by building derivatives of existing planes, please study up on the economics of the L-1011. Lockheed came up with a great plane, but found that the payback number - the number of planes that needed to be sold to recover their development costs - was about 700 planes. They never came close to selling that number, and wound up losing money on every plane they sold.

Building a new plane from scratch is really expensive. Doing derivatives that sell isn't as glamorous, but it's much more responsible to the shareholders.

 

[Cazadores]

For those who feel Boeing is copping out by building derivatives of existing planes, please study up on the economics of the L-1011. Lockheed came up with a great plane, but found that the payback number - the number of planes that needed to be sold to recover their development costs - was about 700 planes. They never came close to selling that number, and wound up losing money on every plane they sold.

Building a new plane from scratch is really expensive. Doing derivatives that sell isn't as glamorous, but it's much more responsible to the shareholders.

Your response is obvious, of course the sausage machine turning out fuselages at Boeing makes money, they developed the idea of the "stretch" along with Douglas (RIP) with the shrinking of the 707 to the 720 and the lengthening of the 727 to the 200, and the countless others.

Which is the point here. Boeing and Douglas and Lockheed took risks, they bet the company to do great things, and then pioneered rhe tweaking of great ideas to make them legendary workhorses. This is how you dominate, and move forward.

I'd like to believe we and our iconic pioneering companies haven't been so neutered by day traders and the same analysts screaming "Brexit" was death to Britain they refuse to innovate, to do great things.

So your right, it's safe, for now. The A380 shows what a weak competitor Airbus is for many reasons, just wait til a true innovator, a new Boeing, Lockheed or Douglas rolls onto the scene, and Boeing is still figuring out how to stretch the 737MAXNG-SUPER1000XY.

Besides, when I was a kid going to the airport was exciting, all the shapes, sizes, missions and roles airplanes had. They wore the flags of their homes with pride. Twins for miles now, fat 737s for Asia, skinny ones for Hawaii. Boring. No wonder everyone chooses law school over engineering or flight school.

 

[gotWXdagain]

Boeing Commercial Airplanes. Building with today's technology for many tomorrow's to come.

 

[Cazadores]

Boeing Commercial Airplanes. Building with today's technology for many tomorrow's to come.

In the case of the 737, "Bringing yesterday's technology to you, today, and tomorrow!"

 

[Pilot Fighter]

find a way to make a Prius-like plane that holds the ideal amount of passengers

I don't like my girlfriend's Prius-like Prius because it doesn't hold an ideal amount of me. There's a bunch of Prius-like planes in my opinion.

 

[Richman]

My favorite Boeing isn't.

Richman

 

[Avgirl]

I don't like my girlfriend's Prius-like Prius because it doesn't hold an ideal amount of me. There's a bunch of Prius-like planes in my opinion.

Made by Boeing? They have all this cool innovation, the super strong but super light metal, solar panels just to name a few but they are more about PR than anything else. Not practicality or budget friendliness.

 

[A Life Aloft]

My two cents, and it's difficult to explain, but there has been a serious cultural change going on at Boeing since Muilenburg took over. Things were shifting before, and realigning but it's very different and apparent now. And there are changes, shuffling, cut backs and examinations happening at every level in every department. There have been a fair amount of lay-offs here and there and there is an uncertainty that is being felt by many employees. More layoffs were announced just a few months ago in the commercial division which will take place over the next several months. I will not be surprised to hear/see that they will be lightening the load in their defense divisions at some point. They lost the new bomber contract. In fact, their entire defense program is having issues and has been for a while. Lockheed snagged over twice the dollar amount in defense contracts last year than Boeing did. Not good.

Boeing has a terrible back log of aircraft that is costing them a fortune in current and new orders. So when they come out and announce that they are going to produce 3 more 777's a month, one has to ponder how this is really going to make the type of impact that they need to be making. How they plan to overcome this back log, I have no idea.

There were a lot of shall we say added value items that used to be provided by Boeing to it's commercial customers which have been either slashed, greatly reduced or farmed out to sub contractors. There is a sure and steady march to look at all their programs and cut expenditures. On many levels, they have been struggling. I am sorry to see this myself, but it's been going on for a few years now. There have been some pretty serious lags in Boeing to recognizing where the commercial industry is headed and what they will need in terms of aircraft into the future. They have now come across as not the innovators that they once were. There have been so many delays in them defining, presenting and claiming new products, and this has also heavily cost them.

There has also been a widening gap between the commercial and the defense side of production and development that needs to be bridged. It is of no help whatsoever that their new KC-46 tanker is going to miss it's contractual deadline for the AF due to the same ongoing re-fueling system issues that has plagued them for some time now and still have yet to be resolved. Muilenburg has been at Boeing a long damn time in other capacities. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. He is in a serious trim the dollar mode. They had two share buy backs last year. I know that many at Boeing and I mean long term senior employees in engineering for example, are feeling very uncertain and not as hopeful/secure as they would want/like to be. Either he will turn this ship around or he won't. Only time will tell and sadly time is not exactly on their side right now.

 

[Cptnchia]

I have been to Delta TechOps and have seen what they are doing to accomplish that in all of their planes.

When I read this sentence I got a giddy feeling that this was going to be an epic post ala, "I was at NATCO, people..."

Now I'm just a sad panda

 

[Avgirl]

When I read this sentence I got a giddy feeling that this was going to be an epic post ala, "I was at NATCO, people..."

Now I'm just a sad panda

Sorry. That would have been interesting. But Delta TechOps is seriously like Disneyland. I had more fun there than at Disney and admission was free!

 

[Cptnchia]

Sorry. That would have been interesting. But Delta TechOps is seriously like Disneyland. I had more fun there than at Disney and admission was free!

<psst, I work for Delta. I know.>

Still was hoping for some Rightseatgirl classic gold.

 

[Plata]

My two cents, and it's difficult to explain, but there has been a serious cultural change going on at Boeing since Muilenburg took over. Things were shifting before, and realigning but it's very different and apparent now. And there are changes, shuffling, cut backs and examinations happening at every level in every department. There have been a fair amount of lay-offs here and there and there is an uncertainty that is being felt by many employees. More layoffs were announced just a few months ago in the commercial division which will take place over the next several months. I will not be surprised to hear/see that they will be lightening the load in their defense divisions at some point. They lost the new bomber contract. In fact, their entire defense program is having issues and has been for a while. Lockheed snagged over twice the dollar amount in defense contracts last year than Boeing did. Not good.

Boeing has a terrible back log of aircraft that is costing them a fortune in current and new orders. So when they come out and announce that they are going to produce 3 more 777's a month, one has to ponder how this is really going to make the type of impact that they need to be making. How they plan to overcome this back log, I have no idea.

There were a lot of shall we say added value items that used to be provided by Boeing to it's commercial customers which have been either slashed, greatly reduced or farmed out to sub contractors. There is a sure and steady march to look at all their programs and cut expenditures. On many levels, they have been struggling. I am sorry to see this myself, but it's been going on for a few years now. There have been some pretty serious lags in Boeing to recognizing where the commercial industry is headed and what they will need in terms of aircraft into the future. They have now come across as not the innovators that they once were. There have been so many delays in them defining, presenting and claiming new products, and this has also heavily cost them.

There has also been a widening gap between the commercial and the defense side of production and development that needs to be bridged. It is of no help whatsoever that their new KC-46 tanker is going to miss it's contractual deadline for the AF due to the same ongoing re-fueling system issues that has plagued them for some time now and still have yet to be resolved. Muilenburg has been at Boeing a long damn time in other capacities. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. He is in a serious trim the dollar mode. They had two share buy backs last year. I know that many at Boeing and I mean long term senior employees in engineering for example, are feeling very uncertain and not as hopeful/secure as they would want/like to be. Either he will turn this ship around or he won't. Only time will tell and sadly time is not exactly on their side right now.

I'm ex-Boeing from the mid-Eighties, right after they began hiring again after huge layoffs and years in survival mode. Much of what you described in terms of cost cutting, failure to win contracts, emphasis on increasing deliveries, and concern about the future existed then, too. It doesn't sound as though things have changed very much, and I point that out only to say that things might not be as glum as you think they are.

As an aside, while I was at Boeing a management book was published. It was about the top companies in the US and what made them great. Boeing was one of the featured companies. At the time I remember thinking "this place ain't that great," but after having worked at other engineering and manufacturing firms I now know I was wrong: it really is/was a great place to work.

 

[A Life Aloft]

I'm ex-Boeing from the mid-Eighties, right after they began hiring again after huge layoffs and years in survival mode. Much of what you described in terms of cost cutting, failure to win contracts, emphasis on increasing deliveries, and concern about the future existed then, too. It doesn't sound as though things have changed very much, and I point that out only to say that things might not be as glum as you think they are.

As an aside, while I was at Boeing a management book was published. It was about the top companies in the US and what made them great. Boeing was one of the featured companies. At the time I remember thinking "this place ain't that great," but after having worked at other engineering and manufacturing firms I now know I was wrong: it really is/was a great place to work.

I hope you are right. I have a long love affair with Boeing that goes back many decades. But in talking to those I know who have recently retired or are still working up North and down here in Seal Beach and Long Beach (including some who have been displaced in the last two years), the feelings/moods are less positive than I have heard/seen in a long time. There are obviously a number of serious issues that they need to be resolving. I truly hope that they can.