RAA

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That was a good post from pscraig. I also really like this one from Ophir in the changing careers forum:
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It was not so long ago that I was in your shoes thinking of the best way to build time. Luckily I had some extra cash from other things going on in my previous life so buying time was an option. I looked and listened to the folks on this site and low and behold I took the advice of many, I became a CFI. I didn't know what I was looking for in being a CFI other than time building but now that I am cresting the 1000hr mark I can tell you it was experience.

There is virtually no way for a person to come from a Commercial rating and have enough knowledge about avation that will make them hireable or safe. The CFI route is certainly a long route with many hardships but it is one that is tried and true.

I highly recommend not looking for a way to build time other than becoming a teach of the thing you love. A mentor in my previous life told me that no one learns a thing in a presentation except for the presenter. I believe him now more than ever. If you become a CFI you won't regret it. It is highly rewarding and it is an incredible experience. You will learn all you need to know to be hireable by a Regional too, if you apply yourself.

From my perspective now, if I had towed banners or patrolled pipelines, I would have robbed myself of the best aviation experience i have had yet, and that is to really learn what it is I am talking about.

Good luck


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It seems to me that people who want to hurry up and get their butt in the right seat of a jet are usually getting into the aviation field for the wrong reasons. Take your time. Have fun. Learn.
 
Nobody can answer why the airlines are still picking up pilots with just only 500 hours....?? Why do te airlines even have a 'bridge program' Some of these schools must be doing something right....enough for ATP to jump on the band wagon....look at their website...

As I stated before, if you don't have the money that's fine...I'm not knocking one thing about becoming an instructor. It's a good route, I'm not knocking the 'direct route', that also sounds like a good route. But some of us DON'T have daddies money ...some of us are making career changes that paid damn well..

Once the airlines start to say that we ARE NOT GOING TO BE ACCEPTING PILOTS with LESS THAN 1000 HOURS, then yeah maybe think about the going the instructor route....unti then 'to each his own'
 
So umm, what happens when the "direct track" doesn't work out for you?? I promise you it doesn't work for everyone, there is still a lot of guys that don't get picked up (don't believe everything those places tell you), you still have to pass the interview where you will be competing with people that have a LOT more experiance than you. Now when it doesn't work out and you don't get hired right off, with less than 500 hrs you are now 80-90K in debt an SOL! You have no CFI ratings to fall back on, and your chances of getting ANY other flying job with that little time is nearly impossible!

I sure wasn't willing to take a risk like that just for a guaranteed "interview"
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People are giving you good advice. You seem upset we aren't telling you what you want to hear.

I'm sure you'll like what a Gulfstream or TAB express recruiter has to say...maybe you should talk to them.
 
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As I stated before, if you don't have the money that's fine...I'm not knocking one thing about becoming an instructor. It's a good route, I'm not knocking the 'direct route', that also sounds like a good route. But some of us DON'T have daddies money ...some of us are making career changes that paid damn well..

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Ok. But I guarentee when you finish RAA, you won't make enough as a jet F/O to pay your student loan bill...Just because you go to RAA doesn't mean you are invincible. You can and will be furloughed. Then what are you going to do when you need a job? Instruct? I wouldn't hire an RAA instructor.

Let's talk about RAA...why are their 'placement rates' so good?...

Oh that's right...because to get that 'guarenteed interview' you have to enroll in their First Officer program which includes a CRJ/ERJ type rating....for $24,999.

Why do the airlines like them? Because they don't have to pay for their new hires type...which saves them money. But should a 500TT/90 multi deserve to be in right seat of an RJ?

I'd rather earn my job. Get your mind off the brochures and the websites that claim "97 percent of our graduates are placed within 45 days"...you're not seeing the picture...Do you really want to be in debt $80,000+ for 20 years just to get to the airlines 3 months quicker than someone who only spent $35,000?

Key Bank is going to give you the money...but how about when you go to buy a car, house or cell phone where a credit check is required and they see..."Ok....looks like you have an $80,000 student loan out...and you're only making $21,000 at Air Wisconsin"....Go be a multi instructor...earn your job, don't pay for it...

UPS is right...RAA is PFJ.

Last time I'll try to save you from making a huge mistake.

Forget you ever heard of Regional Airline Academy.
 
I don't know much about RAA, but it does not sound like too good of a deal. We all have different ideas about direct track programs. I personally do not have an ethical problem with people who go direct after a training program, it is the Gulfstream type programs that I don't like. But just because a program like RAA is not unethical like Gulfstream does not make it a good idea. You are paying a lot of money for a worthless type rating. A type rating allows you to be PIC of a jet, but you are not qualified to do this and will not have enough time for several years. You can get training in jet systems and procedures from a program like ATP's for a lot less. After you go to an airline, they will train you in whatever aircraft you are going to fly and when you upgrade to captain, you will get a type rating.

To me, programs like this prey on the uninformed. You know just enough to be dangerous at this point. You probably have very little or no flight time. You are successful at what you do now, but want to be a pilot. A program like this makes sense to you. Other 500 hr pilots are getting hired, why shouldn't I be doing the same thing? It is a good question and you should not be faulted for asking it.

Part of the problem is that after you finish your initial training you will have around 250 hours and be a commercial pilot with an instrument rating. At this point you are proud to have become a commercial pilot, but if you are honest you will realize that you really don't know that much. Most of your flying has been supervised by a CFI, and you still have a lot to learn. If you are reasonably intelligent and have good instrument skills it is possible to put you in a simulator, show you what buttons to push and get you a type rating. But being a pilot is more than being able to push buttons and fly an ILS to the Practical Test Standards. It is also about judgment and experience. You still have a long way to go on both counts.

This is one of the reasons so many here are so against this type of program. I am not an Airline Captain, but I would not want to be babysitting an unqualified FO for a 4 day trip. You have enough other things to worry about without having to constantly watch the crewmember who is supposed to be making your job easier.

I happen to think that the best way to get this experience is to work at a decent flight school. If you actually take your job as an instructor seriously, you will learn a lot. You cannot teach what you do not know and you cannot explain that which you do not understand. You will also gain valuable experience making decisions in the cockpit. Most importantly you will learn how to tell your students 'no'. Some will want flight reviews when they are unsafe, others will want to take check rides that they will fail. You will have to make the decision to cancel you flights and make no money during bad weather. (Admittedly this is more important to the younger pilots out there who have less 'life experience'.) So, being an instructor will not only teach you how to fly, it will teach you judgment and how to work with others in the cockpit.

If you work at a good school, you will get lots of multi-time and may take a pay cut to go to some of those regionals you mentioned. In the two years I spend as a CFI, I averaged $20k per year, so not everyone starves.

As far as RAA goes, who knows? The 97% placement rate is suspect and I would be interested to know how they measure it. You can bet that a good number wash out before the end and never get the 'guaranteed interview'. The fact that they advertise an expensive program that results in a worthless type rating is a black mark against them (I did already mention you get a free type rating free when you upgrade to Captain, didn't I?). In case they didn't mention it in their advertisements, you probably don't get an unrestricted type rating when you complete this program. If you get all of your training in a Simulator, including the check ride, your license will have the following limitation: "This Certificate is Subject to Pilot-In-Command Limitation for CRJ-200". In order to get this removed, you will have to obtain 25 hours of supervised operating experience. This will involve you flying from the left seat as 'acting PIC' while you are supervised by a qualified PIC from the right seat. You then have to fill out another 8710 and take your log book to the FSDO so they can issue you a new license. There are two ways to avoid this, one is to take part of the check ride in the aircraft (which I doubt they do). The other way is to have significant time in type or time in another aircraft that requires a type rating, which anyone contemplating this program does not have.

Since you are wondering, the reason the airlines want to hire low time people from programs like this is because they really need people right now but hiring the typical 500 hour pilot is risky for them since most would fail (it is not uncommon for higher time people to fail either, so don't get complacent!). By accepting graduates from this type of program they have a reasonable assurance that you will pass your initial training, since you have already completed essentially the same course (on your own time and money). They also like the fact that once they hire you, they are guaranteed that you will be their slave for a very long time. You will not be upgrading anytime soon, so they know that you will not be getting that valuable 121 PIC time and be applying for a better job for several years.

Contrary to popular belief, the airline still gives you the same training every other new hire gets, so they don't save any money on your initial training.

If all you care about is speed, then I would advise you to go to ATP. After you finish your Private, you will complete all your other ratings in 90 days, then you can instruct for a year or less and get that regional job you want so much. Even though RAA might not want you to know this, anyone who meets minimums when the regionals are in the middle of a hiring binge is almost 'guaranteed' an interview. It is only when times are hard and no one is hiring that interviews are hard to come by. Then programs like this disappear, since the airlines don't have the need for any 500 hour wonders.
 
WOW... That's got to be one of the best responses I've seen to date regarding these types of programs.

Very well thought out... direct... all while showing respect for peoples backgrounds and decisions/potential decisions as well.

Well said.

Bob
 
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Nobody can answer why the airlines are still picking up pilots with just only 500 hours....?? Why do te airlines even have a 'bridge program' Some of these schools must be doing something right....enough for ATP to jump on the band wagon....look at their website...

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I addressed this in my previous post, but since you are new to the game I will tell you a little history. Before 9-11 Con-ex was interviewing instructors with 500 hrs total time. All of the ones I knew were all MEI's with over 100 dual given in the twin, but alot of people were being hired with very low time. So much so that FSI started making all their new CFI's sign an 800 hr contract to work there, since they could not keep enough higher time CFI's around to make new CFI's (in a 141 program you have to have 400 hrs dual given and an 80% pass rate to teach CFI candidates).

The airlines were hiring all the qualified instructors (even ones with 500 hrs) they could get their hands on, so some of the schools came up with the idea of 'direct track' programs. It usually involves students paying alot of money to save not that much time. The schools rake in alot of money and the airline gets people who can pass their training program. So it is win, win for everyone. Except for the student who paid to go all the way from zero time to commercial and then spend another $25-30k to save 6 months worth of time.

It is happening all over again, there is a hiring binge going on and very low time people are being hired. There is nothing wrong with that. Some times you happen to be in the right place at the right time.

Some do not mind adding another $25k to their debt load to get a job that pays $20k per year, others think it is crazy, to each their own. I know a few who it worked out for, if they would have waited to be a CFI, they would have gotten in too late and been furloughed. Others paid to go direct and then the airline stopped hiring. Then they were broke and had no job and were not a CFI, so no flying for them.

I think this is very important and few of the programs will mention it, but if you sign up for one of these programs and the airline partners stop hiring, you will probably get your interview, but you will not get a job. You will be placed in a 'hiring pool' and will be first on the list to be hired when whatever airline you interviewed with starts hiring again. You will not know how long this will be, but you better still know how to fly when they call, because you will be washed out of their training program if you can't.
 
WOW !! that was a really good response,

there is not one point in there to argue with, I am just starting out my flight career, I have my check ride next month. And I spoke with the RAA counselor, he sold me on everything that he told me. Hey if they are hiring with a 97% rate, who can argue with that? I sure didn't ...

It's not that I am getting mad at what people are telling me, it's no one until now, has gave specific as to why they are so bad....

...forget you ever heard about them....they are a rip off, oh yeah? why? but seeing your point of view on experience that you will lose by going the direct route is really an eye opener..

So my hats off to you...
 
Kid;
We're just trying to say there are more cost effective ways to the airlines. And it will take just as long. Get that through your head and the quicker you'll see what this industry is all about.

Why are they so bad? Because they prey off you starry-eyed Flight Training Magazine reader who will take out the big Key Loan. Thanks to you they can afford to drive their Land Rover and take vacations to Figi...All while your...PAYING INTEREST on it. With a loan that big, you will be paying back what you took out, plus half. Not a good situation to be in when you're an RAA CFI at $10/hr. One more thing...At RAA, you as soon as you're done with your MEI, you're on as an instructor and after 6-months, that big old loan bill starts coming due. NOT A GOOD SITUATION TO BE IN.

Regional Airline Academy is a scam. Their grads are very uneducated as well as frowned up on these forums. Just so you know, most of the guys who are on here are airline pilots, not managers of FBOs. They have flown with RAA grads, and they've spoken. They're scared. Just because Regional Airline Academy gives you a type rating on an aircraft that you don't need, because you wont make captain for a couple years, that doesn't make you hot sh*t. Spend far less, go to ATP or Ari-Ben, get your multi time, instruct, learn and go to the airlines. Why are you so hung up on this RAA crap?

If you called me right now, and I told you I own Major Airline Academy and I place 98% of my graduates in airlines in 30 days, are you going to believe it? Because that is what you're doing. The gentlemen you talked on the phone with is paid to feed you those lines.

Why are Regional Airline Academy's prices so high? I called today to see what the hell is going on over there...heres what I was told...
PPL thru MEI + CRJ Type Rating + Living Expenses = $97,885. That is a guarenteed 700TT/100 Multi. Why would you buy into that?

How about going to Ari-Ben for 15 months....
PPL thru MEI + Living Expenses = $37,000
That is an estimated 1000TT/900 multi.

Not to mention Ari pays their instructors 50% more than RAA.

You've obviously got your mind made up and it's sad to see you buy into the marketing hype. If you wont listen to me...check out two sites...

http://www.allatps.com

http://www.flyaviator.com

Good luck in whatever you choose, but don't be mad at me when I'm sitting across the table from you in an interview at ExpressJet with 1000 multi more and a four-year degree for half of what you paid. Because, I tell you now...I will get the job.
 
What more are you looking for,now that someone has actually explained the real truth behind these direct track programs...I have awakened, I have seen the light...The first week of March I have an interview @ the ATP office is Dallas,

how are you suppose to learn if you get response's like ....they are a rip off? Forget you ever heard about RAA, that's a response, but what do you have to back that up? Now someone has gone into great detail to explain these schools...

....I have seen the light,...i have seend the light...Hallaleuya...i have seend the light
 
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....I have seen the light,...i have seend the light...Hallaleuya...i have seend the light

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Whatever you do, just make sure you don't pay for everything upfront. If a school offers something like '5% discount if you pay in full', run away. ATA offered a somewhat similar direct track program (with no type rating) and they went bankrupt. Since many of their students had payed in full, some lost everything. All Key Bank cares about is that they gave you the money and they expect to be paid back. It sucks to have to pay $500 per month for the next 20 years. It would suck even more if you never got to see the inside of an airplane.

The only direct track program I have any confidence in is the one FSI offers. I do not think that the program is a good idea, but it is not a scam. When it was in operation (and it may be running again, you would have to call them), you interviewed with ASA and were given a conditional offer of employment before you started training. So there was no 'guaranteed interview' that you had to pass after spending all that money. All you had to do was successfully complete the FSI training, then go pass the initial training at the airline.
 
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Regional Airline Academy is a scam. Their grads are very uneducated as well as frowned up on these forums. Just so you know, most of the guys who are on here are airline pilots, not managers of FBOs. They have flown with RAA grads, and they've spoken. They're scared. Just because Regional Airline Academy gives you a type rating on an aircraft that you don't need, because you wont make captain for a couple years, that doesn't make you hot sh*t. Spend far less, go to ATP or Ari-Ben, get your multi time, instruct, learn and go to the airlines. Why are you so hung up on this RAA crap?

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Who on this site has flown with an RAA guy?
 
The only shortcut to an airline job is to aquire lots of multi time in the quickest time period in the least expensive manner.

ATP does this, so does Ari-Ben.

There are some negatives with both of them. My former student went to ATP after doing his private with me and mightl beat me to an airline job (in my defense, he did have his 4-year done prior to flight training).

He was telling me they typically hire about 1/4 of the students that do the complete program (instrument-MEI) and once hired they earn $1000/month gross, with $200 coming out for housing allowance if desired. They get a $40 bonus everytime they send someone up for a sucessful checkride. They don't hire people who do the CFI programs there according to him (CFI-MEI exclusively).

There's a risk involved with it as well - if you get hired as a CFI there you could potentially sit doing office duty for several months until a spot opens up (not sure what the current wait time is). Or if you don't get hired, you're gonna have a hard time adjusting to a smaller 61/141 environment if you go elsewere to instruct.

I'm not sure about Ari-Ben, except that a friend bought 100 hours down there for about $6g's back a few years ago and thought it was worth it.

In this industry there are no guarentees. Some people have a lot of luck, find themselves in the right place at the right time, and get hired with extremely low time. Expressjet was one of those cases - and I say past tense because they are now hiring ex-ACA/indy air guys almost exlusively - so the 'deal' with ATP, in my eyes, is null and void for the time being.



~wheelsup
 
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Who on this site has flown with an RAA guy?

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I've read a few on the site, so just skim these forums.

Also, I know a couple Air Wisky captains who said the RAA grads we're "Aerodynamically unsound" and that they were incomplete when it came to experience and decision-making capabilities.

I don't know about you, but that is proof enough for me.
 
A quote from the FBO section regarding RAA
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if this example gives you an idea of their training...the tool who lives above me goes to RAA & he tells me almost every day.
Tells me how it only took him 130 hours to get his private pilot ticket, how he's gotten lost on every solo x-c he's been on (resulting in DF steer), how he hasn't a clue how to enter a hold even though he's almost through his instrument training and, how he plans on flying on an RJ reealy soon

If he is an indication of anything that facility provides....go somewhere else

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What does that tell you?
 
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