R-ATP and Instruction...

[killbilly]

Learned something disappointing last week and thought I would pass it along.

I am working as a part-time CFI right now and have been toying with the idea of completing an aviation degree - the school I teach at has a LOT of college students working an online aviation degree in a 141 program through a local university; when they graduate they will qualify for the Restricted ATP at either 1000TT or 1250TT depending on their number of credit hours.

Were I to enroll in the same program (and receive transfer credit for my certificates) I would not qualify for the R-ATP because I did not do IR and Commercial with them.

I'm absolutely qualified to teach those programs, but because I didn't train in them, I can't qualify.

So. For those of you considering aviation (I know some of you are lurking out there) and weighing the Part 61 vs. 141 model, take this issue into account.

 

[CFI A&P]

You can still earn a restricted certificate, just not at 1,000 or 1,200 but at 1,500 TT & 200 XC time.

 

[killbilly]

You can still earn a restricted certificate, just not at 1,000 or 1,200 but at 1,500 TT & 200 XC time.

Yeah. I've already got the XC time...I was just hoping I could leverage the degree/transfer credits and save a few hundred hours. Oh well.

 

[srn121]

There are a lot of cool and good paying gigs that will hire you at 1000 hours or more so don't be too upset. You might be able to get on for the summer flying turbine jump planes, there are a lot of summer Alaskan gigs, some SIC gigs and there's always survey. You could also start building time towards your 121 PIC mins by flying for guys like Ultimate Air Shuttle as their mins have dropped quite a bit and I had some people I knew get hired with around 1000 hours and they were treated and paid well, but they worked a lot. Careers - Ultimate Air Shuttle

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Were I to enroll in the same program (and receive transfer credit for my certificates) I would not qualify for the R-ATP because I did not do IR and Commercial with them.

Is this mandated by the regulation or institutional discretion?

 

[NovemberEcho]

Yeah. I've already got the XC time...I was just hoping I could leverage the degree/transfer credits and save a few hundred hours. Oh well.

Guess you and @milleR just have to fly up to FRG more often.

 

[killbilly]

Is this mandated by the regulation or institutional discretion?

I believe it's by regulation, but I'm still digging on that one.

There are a lot of cool and good paying gigs that will hire you at 1000 hours or more so don't be too upset. You might be able to get on for the summer flying turbine jump planes, there are a lot of summer Alaskan gigs, some SIC gigs and there's always survey. You could also start building time towards your 121 PIC mins by flying for guys like Ultimate Air Shuttle as their mins have dropped quite a bit and I had some people I knew get hired with around 1000 hours and they were treated and paid well, but they worked a lot. Careers - Ultimate Air Shuttle

Thanks - my situation is a little different so I have less flexibility for some of the entry level gigs, but I'm working on that. Appreciate the link.

 

[nibake]

It's a reg, and it's pretty specific. If I remember right, I think it even goes so far as to say that commercial and IR need to be part of the same 141 as the school granting the degree. My memory might be wrong, though.

 

[killbilly]

It's a reg, and it's pretty specific. If I remember right, I think it even goes so far as to say that commercial and IR need to be part of the same 141 as the school granting the degree. My memory might be wrong, though.

That's what I was told. It's presumably correct.

 

[Cory Trevor]

I did the same flight training as my classmates, even took a lot of aviation related classes, but because I majored in something different I didn't qualify for the R-ATP.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

Learned something disappointing last week and thought I would pass it along.

I am working as a part-time CFI right now and have been toying with the idea of completing an aviation degree - the school I teach at has a LOT of college students working an online aviation degree in a 141 program through a local university; when they graduate they will qualify for the Restricted ATP at either 1000TT or 1250TT depending on their number of credit hours.

Were I to enroll in the same program (and receive transfer credit for my certificates) I would not qualify for the R-ATP because I did not do IR and Commercial with them.

I'm absolutely qualified to teach those programs, but because I didn't train in them, I can't qualify.

So. For those of you considering aviation (I know some of you are lurking out there) and weighing the Part 61 vs. 141 model, take this issue into account.

Yeah, it's been a lobby-jacked, home-job scam since its inception. Sorry you had to figure that out the way you did. But at least you figured it out.

Sadly, very few care about principles unless and until the absence of those principles negatively affects them directly. BTW, this situation has been growing for decades and is now manifest damned near everywhere. Most folks care only about what helps them individually, proximately, and right now... not about logical consistency, principle, the future, or the common good that sustains us all.

 

[Flyinhigh728]

I’m in the same boat. I’ve been teaching at a 141 school for a year now. I’ve watched many of my colleagues start after me and leave before me because they went through our 2 year 141 college program. It doesn’t make sense to me that I need to instruct for another 5-6 months because I did all of my ratings through part 61.

 

[bimmerphile]

I don't understand why this is confusing to anyone
The whole point of the rule was to lower the minimums for someone that completed a verified and approved training footprint, in order to produce a known quantity. You don't do the program, your training curriculum is unknown=No cookie

 

[Flyinhigh728]

I don't understand why this is confusing to anyone
The whole point of the rule was to lower the minimums for someone that completed a verified and approved training footprint, in order to produce a known quantity. You don't do the program, your training curriculum is unknown=No cookie

I understand why they did it. But it’s confusing to me because a 141 program does not create a better or safer pilot. In many ways, a 141 syllabus is rushed and trains students to the bare minimum. There are so many restrictions on lessons that it’s hard for a student to learn more than what the syllabus says.

 

[USMCmech]

In many ways, a 141 syllabus is rushed and trains students to the bare minimum.

The point that the university based schools make (and it is a valid one) is that they are different ecause they take a full 4 years and go beyond the bare minimum. ATP, FSA, and the other stand alone 141 programs tend to rush you through and teach you just enough to pass the check ride.

Now the position of Riddle that they somehow produce pilots that are automatically better because they slept through CRM class is BS.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

You can still earn a restricted certificate, just not at 1,000 or 1,200 but at 1,500 TT & 200 XC time.

If the regulatory impetus is "more hours = more better safety" (lol, false! but hey, someone somewhere read literally one paper once), then why is there a haircut on experience at all, and other issues.

 

[nibake]

I watched a transition from 61 to 141 and the quality of the student's learning experience suffered.

Not trying to sound like a "get off my lawn" type, but before it started we were teaching people to become pilots, more than just teaching - mentoring. After the switch we were rushing to check boxes to keep some empty suit who had never flown an airplane off our backs.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

I don't understand why this is confusing to anyone
The whole point of the rule was to lower the minimums for someone that completed a verified and approved training footprint, in order to produce a known quantity. You don't do the program, your training curriculum is unknown=No cookie

I haven't researched the details of 141 programs, but it wouldn't take much effort for them to provide different entry points for their students if it were permitted. "A verified and approved training footprint" is not incompatible with accepting some training received elsewhere.

The whole industry is based on accepting training received elsewhere and then independently evaluating the skills and knowledge of the individual.

It's about money, not safety.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

The whole industry is based on accepting training received elsewhere and then independently evaluating the skills and knowledge of the individual.

Hilariously (?) tests of general intelligence are not predictive of success in training or operations for anyone who is not an ab initio student.

And, at the airline "level," broken though it is, nobody is an ab initio student.

Academic records, also hiliariously, tend to be more predictable.

 

[Pilot Fighter]

And, at the airline "level," broken though it is, nobody is an ab initio student.

Foreign ab initio programs scare the heck out of me. There's nothing to break the incestuous chain.