quick question

Aviator1988

Aviator1988

Well-Known Member
Seem to have myself a bit confused after reading all these logging time questions. As a cfi, and i right for logging cross country time with my students in my own logbook as well as theirs? does it matter if they are a student pilot vs private pilot?
 
Maybe. It's hard to follow the recent cross country logging interpretations without thinking the anwer just could be no - didn't do the takeoff and landing and isn't required for the entire flight (at least in the private pilot situation).

I'll continue to say yes until the FAA says otherwise. CFIs have superpowers when it comes to logging.
 
If the student is logging cross country and they do the landing then, regardless of the fact that you didnt perform the ladning you can still log XC time as per the ATP XC time reg.

Just a thought.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Maybe. It's hard to follow the recent cross country logging interpretations without thinking the anwer just could be no - didn't do the takeoff and landing and isn't required for the entire flight (at least in the private pilot situation).

I'll continue to say yes until the FAA says otherwise. CFIs have superpowers when it comes to logging.
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I'd say yes even if the student already has a private. I also agree that CFI's have logging superpowers. As a CFI, you get to log whatever the student logs, apart from approaches and landings.

On a tangent, say I have to help a student with a landing; who gets to log it, since neither the student nor I was the sole manipulator?
 
Chief Captain said:
On a tangent, say I have to help a student with a landing; who gets to log it, since neither the student nor I was the sole manipulator?
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The way I do it with my students flights, and this is by no means the only interpretation of the "sole manipulator" definition out there, is that I log the landing based on whomever is intending to perform the landing. If I have to take control for safety of flight down in the flare, there wasn't intent for me to perform the landing, so I don't log it. Essentially, the only time I will log the landing is if I'm truly the sole manipulator, in the strictest sense of the term, for the approach as well as the landing.
 
Chief Captain said:
I'd say yes even if the student already has a private. I also agree that CFI's have logging superpowers. As a CFI, you get to log whatever the student logs, apart from approaches and landings.

On a tangent, say I have to help a student with a landing; who gets to log it, since neither the student nor I was the sole manipulator?
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If it's a student pilot, it doesn't matter if the student logs the landing since there is no passenger-carrying currency requirement for student pilots.

But otherwise, technically, no one logs the landing for currency (which is the only official reason to log the landing)

btw, instrument approaches too, if it's done in actual.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Maybe. It's hard to follow the recent cross country logging interpretations without thinking the anwer just could be no - didn't do the takeoff and landing and isn't required for the entire flight (at least in the private pilot situation).

I'll continue to say yes until the FAA says otherwise. CFIs have superpowers.
Click to expand...

Fixed it for ya.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
If it's a student pilot, it doesn't matter if the student logs the landing since there is no passenger-carrying currency requirement for student pilots.
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But for solo purposes, you do need to log landings in the student piilot's logbook, as takeoffs and landings are a required pre-solo area of operation. If the student goes on their first solo and has no landings logged in their logbook, things are gonna look really shady.
 
poser765 said:
I knew that. I think what i was getting confused over for some reason is whether or not I have to do a landing in order for me to log it as XC.
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The recent Chief Counsel opinions on cross country logging suggest that, generally, as a pilot you do. Both the takeoff and the landing.

For reference the three are

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...interpretations/data/interps/2009/Gebhart.pdf (safety pilots may not log cross country)

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...nterpretations/data/interps/2009/Hilliard.pdf (two pilots switching en route-neither logs cross country time)

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretations/data/interps/2009/Louis Glenn.pdf (summary of multiple scenarios)

The problem with these three is that IMO they are "policy-based" - Flight Standards wants that result (no cross country time for safety pilots) and the Chief Counsel's office comes up with an interpretation that produces the result. Then they end up applying the made-up reasoning to cover other situations or making up ways to avoid applying it. That makes it hard to predict other scenarios.

But what I personally (not a legal opinion by any stretch of the imagination) take from it is that the following may still be logged without performing the takeoff and landing.
  • both pilots in the "true" mult-pilot required situation (aircraft or operation requiring more than owe pilot for the entire flight; not just a safety pilot) can log cross country. That's because the analysis for safety pilots focuses on not be required for all of the flight; and
  • non-flying CFIs can log it when giving instruction because CFS have superpowers :)
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
The recent Chief Counsel opinions on cross country logging suggest that, generally, as a pilot you do. Both the takeoff and the landing.

For reference the three are

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...interpretations/data/interps/2009/Gebhart.pdf (safety pilots may not log cross country)

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...nterpretations/data/interps/2009/Hilliard.pdf (two pilots switching en route-neither logs cross country time)

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...rpretations/data/interps/2009/Louis Glenn.pdf (summary of multiple scenarios)

The problem with these three is that IMO they are "policy-based" - Flight Standards wants that result (no cross country time for safety pilots) and the Chief Counsel's office comes up with an interpretation that produces the result. Then they end up applying the made-up reasoning to cover other situations or making up ways to avoid applying it. That makes it hard to predict other scenarios.

But what I personally (not a legal opinion by any stretch of the imagination) take from it is that the following may still be logged without performing the takeoff and landing.
  • both pilots in the "true" mult-pilot required situation (aircraft or operation requiring more than owe pilot for the entire flight; not just a safety pilot) can log cross country. That's because the analysis for safety pilots focuses on not be required for all of the flight; and
  • non-flying CFIs can log it when giving instruction because CFS have superpowers :)
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Thanks for the links. I had read those opinions and that is what kind of got me worried. It's been said a few times in this thread that CFIs have superpowers when it comes to loggings. That is where I was getting concerned. As a CFI I have alway been under the impression that if I am on a cross country with a student i can log it as such. I haven't been able to find any opinions that support that claim. Reading through those three left me with a sense of No you can not log it unless you do the landing.
 
poser765 said:
Thanks for the links. I had read those opinions and that is what kind of got me worried. It's been said a few times in this thread that CFIs have superpowers when it comes to loggings. That is where I was getting concerned. As a CFI I have alway been under the impression that if I am on a cross country with a student i can log it as such. I haven't been able to find any opinions that support that claim. Reading through those three left me with a sense of No you can not log it unless you do the landing.
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You're right. There is no opinion about the CFI logging the cross country.

The "superpowers" appear in other Chief Counsel opinions. A CFI can log the a client's instrument approach in actual (the non-flying pilot in a multi-pilot crew can't); A CFI does not have to have day or night landing currency because even a student pilot on his very first lesson is not considered a passenger (even an ATP with 20 gazillion hours of night flight can't do that). Chances are pretty decent that, if asked, the Chief Counsel will find a way to let the super-CFI log the cross country flight time.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
A CFI does not have to have day or night landing currency because even a student pilot on his very first lesson is not considered a passenger...
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Interesting. Was there an interpretation that spells that out? I don't disagree, but I had never thought of it that way before.
 
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