Questionable logging practice, or commonly accepted?

C150J

C150J

Well-Known Member
Hi all -

This question is not about shortcuts, believe me, I currently work for the DOT...

Logging scenario:

Part 91 passenger operation (privately owned/operated), aircraft requires one crew member, not two. Two pilots up front, one (or both, doesn't matter) with an MEI. The MEI signs off the other pilot, enabling him to log the time.

Personally, I see no gain in this method, and find it suspect. However, I am not as experienced as some of you, and will definitely be open-minded if someone disagrees. I was offered such a position (paid), but am not going to "bite" unless I hear otherwise. I brought up splitting legs, so one pilot could log "absolute" PIC time, but I don't know how likely that will be, as the other pilo employed is gunning for a regional seat (time building).

I SWEAR I read something from the Orlando FSDO discouraging such practices...

J.
 
You should log it if you're recieving legitament instructoin from a CFI/MEI, otherwise don't. I think we all know when we're recieving instruction and when we aren't. Riding in the right seat moving the flap and gear handles while the other guy flies is not instruction....

Flying the airplane and/or getting your first few hours in a new type is legitament to log as dual recieved IMO.

A few hours of dual given here and there in the above scenarios is fine....but you will raise red flags if you're getting 50 hours of dual recieved every month in a King Air 200 and logging that as PIC.
 
Not sure of your scenario.

Are we in a multi-engine airplane? (I assume we are, but just checking)
Is it two pilots plus and MEI or 2 pilots including an MEI?
What are the certificates and ratings of the non-MEI pilot(s)
Exactly what are they logging? dual? PIC? night?

If you're talking two multi-rated pilots in the front seat of a multi-engine airplane and an MEI in the back and it is an instructional flight, then I guess it's okay for both front seat pilots to log dual received. But it is absolutely not legitimate for anyone other than the pilot operating the controls and the MEI to log PIC time, and no one may log SIC time.
 
Thanks for the insight, but I don't think I was clear...

More particulars:

Only two pilots, both of which are fully credentialed to ACT as PIC (multi, instrument, high performance, high altitude, and insured).

Aircraft would be a Cheyenne IIIA.

Aircraft operated for business trips by private owner. During such flights, one of the pilots logs dual given, while the other logs dual received (enabling them to log such time as PIC).

Even if there was instruction occuring in the cockpit, doesn't this seem a little shady? I'd rather split legs and know it was clear-cut PIC time...

I'm still searching for it, but I think the Orlando FSDO sent out a letter regarding such time. In their case, it wasn't a paid gig, but PFT, but I don't think compensation is a factor in their interpretation.

J.
 
logging that way does seem a little suspect, esp if you arent really giving instruction.

What you might look into is putting one pilot under the hood, so a safety pilot is required. You wont get dual given out of it, but both pilots can log PIC, and one of them gets some simulated instrument out of it.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Aircraft operated for business trips by private owner. During such flights, one of the pilots logs dual given, while the other logs dual received (enabling them to log such time as PIC).

[/ QUOTE ]Gotcha.

The answer comes down to whether they are logging instruction in order to build time or because there is =really= instruction going on.

No one is going to look at it funny if once in a while the two get combined. That's natural. But a regular pattern of two qualified pilots logging business flights as instruction will definitely make the FAA unhappy if there's a reason for them to notice it.

Although there were some other things going on as well, here's an NTSB certificate action case against two CFIs who came up with a "brilliant" strategy for building flight time - they did over 200 flights together in which they each always logged PIC time for the whole flight. They claimed this was okay because whenever they weren't flying they were instructing each other. Of course, they couldn't come up with a good reason why two proficient pilots intimately familiar with the airplanes, needed so much instruction from each other (you'd think after all that unsuccessful instruction, they'd get a new CFI to make them into better pilots).

PDF File:

http://www.ntsb.gov/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4008.PDF
 
[ QUOTE ]
logging that way does seem a little suspect, esp if you arent really giving instruction.

What you might look into is putting one pilot under the hood, so a safety pilot is required. You wont get dual given out of it, but both pilots can log PIC, and one of them gets some simulated instrument out of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. That way you don't have to worry about getting shady with the regs. You will be in full compliance with all the regs, everyone gets to log PIC time, and you never have to worry about the FSDO busting you.
 
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