Question RE: Military lights out operations

RICHARD5

RICHARD5

Well-Known Member
I'm camping in the Lake Alamo/Lake Havasu area. Very few overflights here but I can ident most of them (local GA, Pt 141 training flights arr/dep KHII, Pt 135 frieght). I know there are some MTRs and mil SUA in this area.

So I watch the sky...I see night time aerial refueling. I see lights out formations. Then I see a landing light flick on off on off. I don't hear the aircraft noise signature nor hear anything on the VHF. Do you suppose this was inadvertant illumination or perhaps a planned signal? What could it be? (please, no wise cracks about aliens)
 
Most military aircraft use UHF frequencies. Depending on your location, wind, & terrain you may or may not hear an aircraft approaching. I can only guess at the landing light...
 
Second on you won't hear anything VHF, AAR and most ops are UHF, with VHF being used for things such as interflight within formations, and you'd only hear that if you knew the particular discreet freq.

You're probably seeing general ops in the Baghdad/Gladden/Turtle MOAs. So far as a landing light flicking on/off....who knows, if even that was what it was. Without some more context, it's hard to say. It wouldn't be a fighter. If you saw it as part of an aerial refueling formation (which you don't specify), it could be the nacelle lights of the tanker being turned off.
 
Does the boom operator use night vision at night? If so maybe one of the fighters were playing a mean trick?
 
Maurus said:
Does the boom operator use night vision at night? If so maybe one of the fighters were playing a mean trick?
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Not to my knowlege, since they use non-compatible lighting on the end of their boom. I don't believe they use them in cockpit, again due to non-compatibility. And fighters don't refuel under NVGs. In fact, unless there's been a change, fighters still have to be unaided prior to pre-contact.
 
I cant think of a military fighter off the top of my head that has an exposed landing light when the gear is retracted.
 
I could be way off in my guesses here, but I can think of many reasons for a military or civil plane to flash the landing lights (if able to do so without the gear extended). A formation may have gotten split up and was unable to get a visual with each other. It may have been a signal from one a/c to another that its radio was out. It could be a pilot of any experience flipping the wrong switch in the cockpit and not realizing until the second cycle of said switch that he/she was using the wrong one. To err is human.
 
The Fez said:
I could be way off in my guesses here, but I can think of many reasons for a military or civil plane to flash the landing lights (if able to do so without the gear extended). A formation may have gotten split up and was unable to get a visual with each other.
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More than likely on NVGs, so that wouldn't be a problem to rejoin. And even if not, there are rejoin contingencies (ie- known geo points, etc) to use, not to mention haing the anti-collisions on anyway (strobes).

It may have been a signal from one a/c to another that its radio was out. It could be a pilot of any experience flipping the wrong switch in the cockpit and not realizing until the second cycle of said switch that he/she was using the wrong one. To err is human.
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Still don't think we have a tactical jet in the inventory that has a steady-burn landing-type light with the gear up. Comm out, you have backup radios which you're on already interflight, and if you're complete electrical failure, you don't have lights much less radios.

Thats why I think......if the original poster wasn't hallucinating or otherwise intoxicated, and saw what he thinks he saw.......it was likely a tanker or heavier aircraft, or a civilain plane. :)
 
MikeD said:
Thats why I think......if the original poster wasn't hallucinating or otherwise intoxicated, and saw what he thinks he saw.......it was likely a tanker or heavier aircraft, or a civilain plane. :)
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I was just throwing out whatever came to mind, but I see what you're talking about. My first thought was a civilian plane in the MOA. It very well may have had a close call in that big black sky and was flashing its lights to announce its presence and position.
 
The Fez said:
I was just throwing out whatever came to mind, but I see what you're talking about. My first thought was a civilian plane in the MOA. It very well may have had a close call in that big black sky and was flashing its lights to announce its presence and position.
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I agree. Makes complete sense. And those ideas you had were all good considerations.

I think the OP is seeing things......what with being out at a lake and camping and all.....:D
 
We use flashing wingtip/nav/form lights to signal lost comms in formation, but I doubt that is what the OP saw. Strobes are a no-no in night forms, and normally the anticollision lights are killed once the flight is formed up to aid night vision. Not sure what you may have seen.....and I agree, never heard of flashing landing or external landing lights (external to the gear that is)
 
Speaking of flashing lights. I recently saw some A-10's taxing out for a night flight and their Nav lights were flashing? What is up with that.
 
Wait, hold on, am I the only one who noticed that he's camping but can still access the internet to make a post. SHAME! ;)
 
Bandit_Driver said:
Speaking of flashing lights. I recently saw some A-10's taxing out for a night flight and their Nav lights were flashing? What is up with that.
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Standard for the A-10 was to have the nav lights to bright/flash when taxiing and at arming. A good formation can do nearly everything comm-out with each other, if the flight was briefed correctly. So, in order to minimize comm, items with lights are used. For example, when in the arming area, when you're complete with getting your jet armed by the ground crew, you flip your nav lights to dim/steady. That signals to the next member of the flight that you're ready, and when he's ready, he'll do the same.....and on an on it goes until the flight lead knows that everyone is ready to check-in on tower freq. Once takeoff clearance is granted, the flight takes the runway in position. (talking two-ship ops here), as soon as the flight lead stops, he flips off his landing light and keeps his strobes off, signaling that he's ready for the runup. #2 taxies into position next to and slightly aft of #1 (on his side of the runway centerline (always upwind to the max extent possible), comes to a stop and flips his landing light off, both signaling that he's ready for runup, as well as commencing his runup. At this point, #1 runs his engines up, checks his gauges and flips his landing light on, signaling ready for takeoff. When #2 checks good, his landing light and strobes comes on and (for a trail departure of....say, 15 secs for example) #1 begins his takeoff roll flipping his strobes on following liftoff, followed 15 secs later by #2. All done without the need for comms between the two jets, and all of this goes quite quickly.

Again, an efficient tactical formation flight is one where nearly all of it (if not all) can be accomplished comm-out between the formation members, day or night.

Thats the basics of a light drill you'll see for A-10s. It differs some for F-16s, as they fly in bright/flash on their navs.
 
I mentioned nothing on the V in order to somewhat substantiate by deduction that it wasn't civilian.

Very funny, Mike. Prag, good observation man. The truth is I come into town to use their free wireless. Like today, I've been up and out since 0430 and now it's 1820 and I just now came into McDonald's to use the wireless. But all last week I was internet free. I still have a routine and I need to find a job. I'm thinking I'll be out here another week or maybe two.

It's freaking gorgeous here. I noticed Lake Havasu is like a mirror and boats have been making full tilt speed runs.
 
RICHARD5 said:
I mentioned nothing on the V in order to somewhat substantiate by deduction that it wasn't civilian.

Very funny, Mike. Prag, good observation man. The truth is I come into town to use their free wireless. Like today, I've been up and out since 0430 and now it's 1820 and I just now came into McDonald's to use the wireless. But all last week I was internet free. I still have a routine and I need to find a job. I'm thinking I'll be out here another week or maybe two.

It's freaking gorgeous here. I noticed Lake Havasu is like a mirror and boats have been making full tilt speed runs.
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That is a very nice and scenic area out there, including nice sunsets. Especially at night when you have a clear sky.
 
MikeD said:
That is a very nice and scenic area out there, including nice sunsets. Especially at night when you have a clear sky.
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A friend used to live in LHC for yrs. I'd fly out here to visit and we flew all over this area. I was thinking of camping but those days of living in a hand dug snow cave are best left in the past. Then it hit me, this area stays fairly mild in winter. Even Kingman could be single digits and here or to the south will be low 40s.

The first 4 days I was here is was windy as all get out but not cold. Sunday was be yoot ti ful, Monday springtime gusty and mid-to low OVC, today not a hint of wind and FEW to CAVU in the afternoon.

The good with the bad...late lastnight some dickheads came offroading and were shooting large caliber and full auto and shotguns from their moving truck. They disappeared into the next wash and rattled off stacked clips. They came back within my line of sight and looked like they were blasting everything that struck their fancy. I had planned my escape if they shot at my truck (I had doused all lights by then) This morning I followed their tracks. I saw where they got stuck mulitple times but saw never saw any footprints other than where a big wet spot was. Broken JD bottles along their trail. nice....
 
MikeD said:
Standard for the A-10 was to have the nav lights to bright/flash when taxiing and at arming. A good formation can do nearly everything comm-out with each other, if the flight was briefed correctly. So, in order to minimize comm, items with lights are used. For example, when in the arming area, when you're complete with getting your jet armed by the ground crew, you flip your nav lights to dim/steady. That signals to the next member of the flight that you're ready, and when he's ready, he'll do the same.....and on an on it goes until the flight lead knows that everyone is ready to check-in on tower freq. Once takeoff clearance is granted, the flight takes the runway in position. (talking two-ship ops here), as soon as the flight lead stops, he flips off his landing light and keeps his strobes off, signaling that he's ready for the runup. #2 taxies into position next to and slightly aft of #1 (on his side of the runway centerline (always upwind to the max extent possible), comes to a stop and flips his landing light off, both signaling that he's ready for runup, as well as commencing his runup. At this point, #1 runs his engines up, checks his gauges and flips his landing light on, signaling ready for takeoff. When #2 checks good, his landing light and strobes comes on and (for a trail departure of....say, 15 secs for example) #1 begins his takeoff roll flipping his strobes on following liftoff, followed 15 secs later by #2. All done without the need for comms between the two jets, and all of this goes quite quickly.

Again, an efficient tactical formation flight is one where nearly all of it (if not all) can be accomplished comm-out between the formation members, day or night.

Thats the basics of a light drill you'll see for A-10s. It differs some for F-16s, as they fly in bright/flash on their navs.
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Thanks Mike That clears up a lot...Too bad the civilian side couldn't run that smoothly...
 
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