Question on crossing a fix on an arrival

PropDriver

PropDriver

Well-Known Member
Ran into an unusual situation the other day. Shorter flight into the hub with a final cruising altitude of 11,000. The arrival says to expect to cross ABCDE at 12,000 and 250 kts. We were instructed to comply and the controller got upset when we asked for a clearance to climb to 12,000.

Does a clearance to cross ABCDE at 12,000 and 250 knots imply that you're cleared to climb?

Never ran into this situation and the controller wasn't happy about us asking for clarification.
 
PropDriver said:
Ran into an unusual situation the other day. Shorter flight into the hub with a final cruising altitude of 11,000. The arrival says to expect to cross ABCDE at 12,000 and 250 kts. We were instructed to comply and the controller got upset when we asked for a clearance to climb to 12,000.

Does a clearance to cross ABCDE at 12,000 and 250 knots imply that you're cleared to climb?

Never ran into this situation and the controller wasn't happy about us asking for clarification.
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Just to be sure I'm picking up what you're putting down...

The actual chart (narrative) says "expect to cross...ABCDE...@12,000"

The controller said "cross ABCDE @12,00" while you were at 11?

If I gave a "cross @ (altitude)," yes, it would be implied to climb/descend to get to that altitude.

If I didn't issue the crossing altitude, there would be a reason - and I may be a tad startled if you climbed/descended to an "expected" chart altitude...

As far as why the controller snipped about it - impossible to say. You did good by asking for clarification, despite someone getting sand in their shorts over it :)
 
When in doubt, clarify!

"Expect" is not a "clearance".
 
You did the right thing by asking, but as a pilot, I would not have climbed. Consider if you were in a 172 at 6000ft flying that STAR...

As somebody said before, the "expect" is just that- an idea of what may happen. Not necessarily what your clearance will be.
 
TripSix said:
Just to be sure I'm picking up what you're putting down...

The actual chart (narrative) says "expect to cross...ABCDE...@12,000"

The controller said "cross ABCDE @12,00" while you were at 11?

If I gave a "cross @ (altitude)," yes, it would be implied to climb/descend to get to that altitude.

If I didn't issue the crossing altitude, there would be a reason - and I may be a tad startled if you climbed/descended to an "expected" chart altitude...

As far as why the controller snipped about it - impossible to say. You did good by asking for clarification, despite someone getting sand in their shorts over it :)
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Yeah that's the exact situation. On a typical arrival, you descend, not climb to make assigned crossing restrictions. Climbing while on an arrival isn't something I've done before so I figured I'd ask.

I know that "expect" is not a clearance.

Thanks for the clarification.
 
Just to turn the tables on this, I was was doing the Prado 7 out of ONT a couple days ago and my F/O kept verifying our climb was "without restrictions". I appreciated that as there is always some confusion about the "at or below" restrictions. ATC got a bit testy with us, however, for the way we were trying to confirm all our climb clearances. The guy was busy and we were taking away his air time. I told the F/O later that we technically didn't need to clarify "climb without restrictions" because the at or below restrictions must be restated by ATC if they want you to comply. If they don't say "climb to 14 thousand, with restrictions" or somehow restate the restrictions, then you can ignore the at or belows. The at or aboves ATC can't cancel because they are for terrain.

Not long ago there was a change to this procedure and it was such a cluster that they changed it back. However, in Canada, and perhaps the rest of the world, they never changed back so there ATC doesn't have to restate restrictions.

Personally, I think it would be better if ATC would just start including the word "unrestricted" in their climb clearances on SID's with restrictions. It would take away any confusion in the pilots mind and not be much of a burden on ATC. Good controllers are saying it that way now....

I tried to cut and paste the reference but it didn't work. It's in 7110.65U page 4-2-2
 
TripSix said:
As far as why the controller snipped about it - impossible to say. You did good by asking for clarification, despite someone getting sand in their shorts over it :)
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Yes, let me apologize on behalf of controllerdom. Cross works for both climb and descent, though.
 
MikeD said:
I would think the STAR would be notated with something like "For turbojet/turbprop use only", or something to that effect. :)
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Not necessarily. I've flown the CYY6 arrival into KMIA. The chart says to expect WORPP at 10,000 & 250kt. There's no restriction to turbine aircraft only.
 
Miami TRACON will put you on a STAR whenever possible, even if you haven't filed one. I usually welcome it anyway, because it's usually on an IFR XC, so good experience for the student to look up the procedure. I also use the chance to explain the "expect" part.
 
Thats weird for low altitude traffic, as its not really the intended purpose. But, to each TRACON their own. Like FSDOs, they all run different.
 
Chief Captain said:
You did the right thing by asking, but as a pilot, I would not have climbed. Consider if you were in a 172 at 6000ft flying that STAR...

As somebody said before, the "expect" is just that- an idea of what may happen. Not necessarily what your clearance will be.
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If a controller issues a crossing to a C172 that puts them in the altitude strata for non-like types - it is a mistake they will only make once :)
 
Chief Captain said:
Eh. No big deal for me. Tampa and Orlando TRACONs also seem to be fond of using STARS.
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Looking at the CYY6, it does appear there is a turbojet only restriction, but only if arriving into OPF.

Weird TRACON procedures and all.
 
Chief Captain said:
Not necessarily. I've flown the CYY6 arrival into KMIA. The chart says to expect WORPP at 10,000 & 250kt. There's no restriction to turbine aircraft only.
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Does it have the Turbojet Vertical Nav Planning Info blurb on it?

Just curious, because that does seem a tad odd...for NORDO purposes and whatnot.
 
I can't say off the top of my head. I don't remember ever seeing the "turbojet VNAV.." blurb on Jepp plates though.

Why would it be a problem when NORDO? If I found myself flying that procedure NORDO, I'd treat it as a crossing restriction. At least ATC would have some idea how my descent is going to be executed.
 
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