Question on age vs. debt to start flight training...

I went up with an instructor since I am a non-current private and the CFI barely had to touch the controls. So that was nice. I only flew though since I have not been in controlled airspace since about 1996. The passion is very high though and the plan still on track. I decided October 2007 is the month I will begin training and I even have 29 model airplanes on a shelf and every month I get to remove one since when the last one is removed, I made my goal and can begin my new adventure in life. Sounds silly, but that makes the dream tangible and every month I know I am one step closer as I can see it. So I will say, best of luck to both of us and maybe we'll be in the same airspace someday. Cheers...
 
Texas Flyer..kudos to you. GO FOR IT. I am 35 and a college graduate in a great job, but my heart tells me I really need to follow my dreams. I'm in the middle of a divorce (no kids) right now, but hopefully if everything goes right, I will be able to sell my house and have enought $$ to pay off some debt. This will enable me to finally follow my dream and become a professional pilot. I have no problems dropping my 75K job and starting over....I know I will be happy.

On a side note, I'm sure you have been looking into several schools to accelerate your ratings/hours, etc... Which ones have you narrowed it down to? I, personally, am looking heavily into ATP.

Like you, this will be my support group for the next year or two until I get everything settled and decided, i.e. divorce, save $$, flight school.

Good Luck!!
 
Sorry to hear about the divorce, I am married and can't imagine the hurt. Flight training is expensive no matter where you go and ATP can be quite expensive. If I could offer any advise it would be evaluate seriously what direction you want your aviation career to go, particularly at age 35, so you get the best training for your situation. One other thing, make sure you make the decision with a clear head. I know a guy who is brilliant and had an excellent paying job and decided he wanted to fly. He turned his life upside down and decided after considerable loss that he didn't want to be a career pilot. Not an injunction, merely a hopefully helpful toss. Best of luck to you.
 
John Mitchel, I narrowed it down to Flight Saftey as number one and Pan Am as number two after researching for over a year now. My decision is because I know I will do much better in a formal training environment that will spend extra time in teaching me ground school items in a classroom setting. Mostly self study is something that is a complete unknown for me since I know from college I excel in the formal school setting (graduated with honors in accounting and that sure got me where I am today, making a lot of money but in the wrong career as an exeutive talent searcher). The price is more for FSA and PA, but I figure I'll learn the most there since it's a more formal setting which I need. Aviator is my third choice and ATP my fourth. Now in 2 years when I visit each school, maybe another school will come into the equation or maybe the more self study based programs will become number one on my list if I feel that is best for me at the time. I'm just excited to be focused on this goal and finally see the light at the end of the tunnel. Sounds like we are in similar situations. I am glad I am not the only one with such a passion to change from a good paying career to begin in aviation at 35. GOOD LUCK TO US BOTH!!!
 
I hope you guys with good jobs have really thought through what you'd be giving up. At 3 points in my life I had to take the decsion about trying to fly for a living or follow the route that would make me the most income. The first 2 times I passed on flying, but eventually got myself where I was looking at having the savings to retire at 50, owned a home, a truck, an airplane, a sportscar and 2 Harleys and had time to enjoy all of it. I had decided I would delay my goal of flying, then flight instruct to keep myself busy when I hit retirement. W'll that all changed when the dotcom bust killed the telco's. My company went bankrupt and I was laid off from my high paying management job. (I also had a lot of money stolen from me by the likes of Bernie Ebbers and a few other crooked CEO's of companies I'd invested in, but that's another story.) At that point, I again though about trying fly for a living and this time went for it even though I practically have one foot in the grave.
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Anyway about a year later, I'm now a full time CFI making Ramen money at age 44. Even though I am still able to afford to keep the stuff I'd accumulated, not having time to enjoy much of it is a big downside of the job, as is wondering if you can stay on the flying career path and still achive other long term life goals. When you're used to living like a Captain at a major airline (income wise) it's tough to make it on $18/hour and getting stiffed after driving an hour to the airport for your one flight of the day.

I may or may not ever get a shot at an airline and at this point don't know if that's what I want, though it does seem like the shortest path to getting qualified enough for a good corporate gig. The 25 year old ATP rated CFI that just left my flight school to fly for a regional tells me he was the second youngest in his class and the oldest was 46, so that gives me some hope if I decide that's the path for me. At the current rate, I should have the mins for a regional by the end of the year if I can get enough twin time.

Anyway, I do know that were it not for careful management of the money I made before making the switch, plus the fact my wife makes a load of money doing a job she likes, there is no way in hell I'd be as happy as I am. My advice in the case at hand would be to keep the corporate gig, start working on collecting ratings at the local FBO. Then you should have all the ratings you need to start working as a CFI by your 10/07 start date and still not be in debt. From what I've seen only a small percentage of the folks that go through the "professional pilot programs" seem to get to an airline cockpit any faster than the guy who got his CFI at the local FBO. The rest end up with a boatload of debt working at the same wage as the FBO guy.

Folks thinking of making the switch really need to think through exactly how much they, and the folks that depend on them, will have to give up. My wife supports me 100% in making the change, but it still bothers me when I leave her with nothing to do when I work weekends and the times I have to tell her we can't do something because moneys too tight.

Good Luck and Choose wisely.
 
Tiger,

Thanks for the detailed and enlightening post. As far as the financial security issues, I am seriously looking into that whole thing. I am communicating with several other graduates of the 'high dollar' schools to get a feel and as much input that I can regarding survival after school! At this point, I am crunching all of the numbers and if they don't work, they don't work. My plan now is to go into flight school with $0 in debt, finance about 75% of the cost. Also, I am saving up to have about 20K in savings to get me through the first year and a half after graduation, during the lean and mean CFI times. As far as the significant other, I'm just getting rid of one, and don't plan on picking up another for quite a while.

Hopefully, I will be 36'ish entering the min times for regionals. I totally realize that I may, uhh, scratch that, NEVER fly a 757 internatational flight starting this late, but right now I am willing to accept that. I still have about a year of research, saving, and number crunching until I do take the leap of faith and make a final decistion. Of course, this all depends if I even pass the class A medical! doh! Not that I have any known medical conditions, but that's just one of the things that I have to plan for.

Once again, thanks for the feedback..keep it coming... I need to start planning my Ramen Noodle and Tostito pizza variety meals! You know there's a reason for all the different Ramen Noodle flavors..so you don't tire out eating them 7 days a week. hehehe

Best of luck to you and your family!
 
One question,

Why are so many people willing to spend sooo much money to get a job that pays sooo little.

I went the FBO route, I changed to part time at work flew every afternoon, and Saturdays, finished all my ratings through CMEL in eight months. I spent 1/3 of the prices at the academies. I then joined a flying club and spent about six months building to 500 total sharing time with other pilots in the club getting lots of instrument. I now have a traffic job building about 90 hrs a month and will have met 135 mins within four more months. I did all this in the same two year time frame you are talking about and I will be able to go regional or cargo and best of all NO DEBT.

my two cents
 
That's some great advice. I guess us newbies are not aware that possibilities like this exist...all we hear is, academy this, flight school that etc... Your route is definitely another option I will research. I guess another reason is the whole 'immersion' theory that would give a late starter, or newbie the total experience day after day. That being said, your post is exactly the reason these forums exist...so people with limited or no knowledge can become alerted to different approaches in achieving thier goals. (and now I breath a sigh of relief that there are other options out there that won't make me some financial institutions little beyotch!
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Once again thanks for the input and the best of luck to you.
 
How much money did you have in the bank before you started? Doing it part time will still cost about 100 bucks per lesson ( plane & instructor). Majority of the population don't have the luxury of spending such...so we the common man have to put out a loan.
 
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Why are so many people willing to spend sooo much money to get a job that pays sooo little.

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Part of the draw of the academies is that they can get you done relatively quickly compared to most FBOs. Guys that are not as young as they used to be (like me) tend to lean more that way. Spending a couple of years working part time and flying when you can afford it slows down the process. I wound up having to take out loans because I was working full time, but I couldn't afford to keep up with flight training expenses. Add to that the stress on me from working 60+ hours a week (rent, food, car, flight training, wife....), flying and taking classes on-line, I almost either needed to take the plunge or quit altogether.

If I had it to do over again, I woulda started younger. If I was like 20-25, I would probably do the work part time thing and train full time while living with my parents. I'm actually coming out of this better than a lot of people. I'll have my ratings PPl-MEI (eventually) plus my degree only owing about $30K. I can name you a lot of people I know that owe more than that just for a college degree. Would I prefer not to go into debt? Hell, yes. Did life present me with that option? Nope.

Finally, to actually answer your question: Everyone has their own reasons for picking this insane career. Some get into it for the "money." They don't last long at all. Others get into it for the travel. They more or less quit not long after the first guys. What you're left with are people that have a serious love and personal drive to succeed in aviation. Honestly, I can't see myself doing anything else. I'm having a blast training for my CFII, and I'm looking forward to teaching. Assuming I don't get killed by a student, I'm looking forward to moving on to bigger and better things. I don't regret one thing I've done as far as my flight training decisions, and for me, that's a very good feeling. It also helps that I have a wife that is behind me and supports me no matter what.
 
Well I went the College with an aviation program route. I started flight training about the third week of school my freshman year. And four and a half years later, I finished all the way up to my CFI with a degree in hand and moved out to Texas and got my Multi-engine rating, CFII, and MEI. In total, I am about $54,000 in debt with college loans and aviation loans. In could be in debt by a lot more if the college I went to wasn't as cheap as it was. I probably could have gotten it done a lot cheaper but overall I'm satisfied how everything went. I think I might go a little more in debt by going and getting my masters though.
 
Just thought I'd fill everyone in on how I am doing on my plan, per the above posts. I think this thread was my first JC post!

It's been a long time an I'm still working hard at the savigns plan. As of January 15th all the following is in place:

* 2006 Harley = 100% paid for.

* 2006 Toyota Tacoma Extended Cab Sport = 100% paid for (yeah, no more mini since I felt long term reliability was important when I won't be replacing any vehicles for a good 10 years).

* College Loans for BSBA Degree = 100% paid for.

* Credit Card Debt from post 911 trauma in my business = 100% paid for.

* House = Sold to be mobile later this year and after 26 months in it, made $20K on the sale after realtor and money to the buyer.

* That means 100% debt free with a savings account of $33K saved so far and collecting a 5.05% rate in a savings account with a bank in NY. :nana2:

I predict at this rate by July 1 when my lease is up in the apartment I moved to for the interim, I'll have $48K to $50K in the bank. I can now literally save right about $3,000 a month +/- a couple hundred depending on how my recruiting team does and how I do directing the division at the office since the better we do the more money we all make. If I focus on how the money will get me flying, I'm hoping that keeps me motivated since it's getting tough to stay motivated at work knowing I'm getting so close to my goals. At any rate, not a bad savings rate after paying my monthly rent ($1,250) and utilites ($475) and vehilce insurance ($225) and gas/ food/ party money ($1,600). And yes, I need a woman in my life to teach me how to be more frugal since I'm in for a very big change (accepting applicaitons for one who is willing to accept a poor future pilot, or shall I say support a future pilot).


So estimating a flight program through MEI costs about $50K. Also assuming no large price hikes in the near future. And also assuming I'll need $35K ($2,900/mo) living money for 12 months before I make a penny as a CFI. And assuiming once I am a CFI I'll figure out how to live off a CFI income. Here are the decisions I have coming up assuming I can keep up the current pace:

* I can leave in July/ August/ September to pursue my dreams. At this point I'll need about a $40K loan to be safe on the money. I think this is what I'm leaning toward since that's a reasonable amount in my opinion and I can manage that.

* Figure out how to continue to work while pursuing flight training here at the local level. Now this would be perfect! But I thought about it and it's not even possible. Working 10-12 hours a day for 5 days a week leaves no time to study or fly outside the weekends. And my brain is always on work and stressed, so I'd not be real productive. Just not an option.

* If I worked for another 12 months longer than planed, until 8/31/08, I'd have $95,000 saved which would be enough to cover everything for cash. I honestly don't think I can survive that long since every day in my current life makes me more anxious. Heck, it's been 8 years and I'm not getting any younger and with how I feel right now this really is not an option.

* Or I could forget my dream and just work another 17 years and have over $2 million saved in cash with a lot of equity tied up in a nice house I can pay off over the next 15 years and then retire early at the age of 50. Yeah, never work again and just relax debt free once again with money in the bank. That is assuming I can survive that long in my current biz and not get hit by a bus or something before I make it another 17 years. Uh, not an option when airplanes been your life dream!


Interesting times and decisions for 2007. But this shows others who struggle with figuring it all out, if you put together a plan and really stick with it, you can make it happen! I been working at this since the summer of 1998 and I am now 33 years old (will be 34 in May). So pretty much after a 10 year plan with many ups and downs, I'm just about there. Fingers crossed the next 7 months go as planned.

And I know there are others out there who feel as I. Every day that I am not in Flight School starting to pursuing my dream, seems like another day in my prison sentence of waiting to start my new life. I actually cross off the days on a calandar and have a weekly count down to August posted on my wall!


Oh, and if you read all posts in this thread, my new flight school order is as such. And notice the big academy programs went away solely due to me not being able to afford them. I am stressed enough about taking a possible loan at $40K and FSA and others would require even more than that for me to feel "safe":
1) Falcon Aviation Academy (50% sure on this one)
2) SkyMates (20% sure this is a back-up to Falcon)
3) White Air (16% sure this is my third place choice)
4) United Flight Systems (14% sure this is tied for third place, but since White Air supports Jet Careers more than UFS I'm all for White Air)

I'll be visiting them all in May to finalize my decision and reserve my start date. I'll see if the order changes after I visit each school since at that time I will in detail price out their program and compare it to the quality of the program I see when I visit. I'll go to where I get my best qaulity for the dollar, hence the best overall value.

Cheers,
Joe
 
Joe
I would seriously look into airplane ownership with the amout of money on hand. They have 20 year terms on planes, so although you won't really be making any payments on the principle the monthly costs are reasonable. Buy a 172 that would allow you to fly whenever you wanted with a freelance instructor and you would be amazed at how easy it is to get through your ratings on very little money. When it is time to get the all important multi find a place that rents one cheap or do the flight academy thing. If you were smart about which airplane you purchased in the 40-60k range you may very well sell it for more then you bought it. Read Dougs article on airplane ownership. You will not have to relocate any family and be able to keep your current job. Hell you may even find flying recreationally without anyone telling you when and where to fly to be more satisfying then flying as a career.

The downsides to this route are you are limited at first to really flying your airplane. (You may not get to fly that brand new g1000 much, or get that tail-wheel endorsement). You also are going to be paying in the 600/month range whether you are flying or not. Good things are you fly when you want to. If you want to go on a trip and stay for a few days you can. You would also be able to keep working and get flying in when you want to. With my little financial analysis I figured the breakeven point to be somewhere between 20-25 hrs a month. Cheaper to rent if less and cheaper to own if more. As long as you live somewhere where the weather is good, you shouldn't have too many troubles breaking that.

-Jason
 
I finally read up and saw that you were concerned with maintaining the plane. Well if you stay simple and stay away from retract, turbos and the like it will remain easy. You have an opposed 4 cylinder with fixed gear and fixed pitch prop, there really isn't that much too it. I have had some minor issues with my plane (leak on the nose strut etc) but luckily haven't had anything a few hundred bucks couldn't fix. You can change your own oil, you just need someone to show you the safety wire stuff, otherwise its basically the same as a car. Pray the avionics don't fry and you will be fine. A cessna 172 is the most popular training plane for a reason. Easy and cheap to maintain and operate.

-Jason
 
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