Question for you freighters

[chrisreedrules]

Is it common to go from working an operation like Ameriflight or another 135 freight company to somewhere like UPS/FedEx? What is the normal career progression to one of the "Major" freight haulers? I usually hear about guys going from Ameriflight etc to a regional or other airline or 135 Px Charter and not on up the "freight chain". Just trying to get some clarification on the path beyond working for a 135 freight outfit and building all the TPIC.

 

[staledog]

Is it common to go from working an operation like Ameriflight or another 135 freight company to somewhere like UPS/FedEx? What is the normal career progression to one of the "Major" freight haulers? I usually hear about guys going from Ameriflight etc to a regional or other airline or 135 Px Charter and not on up the "freight chain". Just trying to get some clarification on the path beyond working for a 135 freight outfit and building all the TPIC.

I think all of us freight dogs wish it worked that way, but I don't believe it's the norm. Seems like the "major" freight haulers hire a good mix of people, and I don't think that most of the people they hire are coming straight from the 135 freight companies. I'm sure some are, but I think just as many come from the military, the corporate world, regionals, or even other major airlines.

 

[DE727UPS]

I think I've talked to one guy who came here straight from Amflight and it was a long time ago. Last time we hired (that was a long time ago as well), they had a requirement for over water experience because ANC widebody was the junior new hire assignment. They didn't have any trouble finding guys with that time and snagging guys from the airlines.

 

[Maurus]

I think I've talked to one guy who came here straight from Amflight and it was a long time ago. Last time we hired (that was a long time ago as well), they had a requirement for over water experience because ANC widebody was the junior new hire assignment. They didn't have any trouble finding guys with that time and snagging guys from the airlines.

Definitely wasn't hard to find that experience when DHL melted down in the US.

I do find it interesting how the major freight haulers don't hire from their feeders. It would make sense as they know the operation a bit better and are use to the night schedule. From what I can tell the mainline guys do the exact same thing the feeders do for the most part.

Fly to a destination early in the AM> layover>come home at night. Rinse and repeat. Obviously there may be multiple legs but that happens with the feeder guys as well.

 

[Inverted]

Barely anyone goes from AMF to any major, the ones that have, had had previous 121 experience. The most impressive place anyone has gone strait from AMF is Allegiant.

 

[Maurus]

Barely anyone goes from AMF to any major, the ones that have, had had previous 121 experience. The most impressive place anyone has gone strait from AMF is Allegiant.

JetBlue actually. United as well the last time they hired off the street.

You do realize the 175 person pilot group is an extremely small sample of the work force and the fact that at least 2 people that may get picked up in a year could very well be an equal percentage to larger pilot groups? Say 2% get hired into a major from XJT. That would be 90 pilots picked up. Obviously you are going to hear more success stories from XJT merely as a result of them have a pilot group that is 26x larger than AMF's.

The statistics are just not known enough to know exactly how AMF pilots do compared to others when the majors hire.

 

[Inverted]

The 1 person that wen't to JetBlue had previous 121 experience. So the last time United hired off of the street, was this 20 years ago? Everyone seems to think the majors have their fingers on the trigger to swoop them up from AMF but the reality is, nobody can name a person who that has happened to. There are too many rumors floating around AMF. Like how there is a SWA direct hire pool, and how they LOVE AMF pilots. Yet nobody knows anyone personally that has been hired directly to SWA.

 

[Inverted]

There are people that have been at AMF 10+ years that are just waiting for SWA to come knocking down their door, that just doesn't happen. They are waiting among the tens of thousands of regional, charter, and corporate captains.

 

[Maurus]

The 1 person that wen't to JetBlue had previous 121 experience. So the last time United hired off of the street, was this 20 years ago? Everyone seems to think the majors have their fingers on the trigger to swoop them up from AMF but the reality is, nobody can name a person who that has happened to. There are too many rumors floating around AMF. Like how there is a SWA direct hire pool, and how they LOVE AMF pilots. Yet nobody knows anyone personally that has been hired directly to SWA.

Obviously a lot has been blown out of proportion with the SWA stuff. Yes one had 121 experience but another recent JetBlue person did not. 2 just went to Allegiant. What is that? 4 in the last couple of years? That is pretty good for the size of the pilot group. Especially once you factor in attrition and the fact that not everyone at AMF wants to go to the airlines.

The biggest thing that hurts freight is that we can not network as effectively as someone at a regional. The lack of jumpseating and not working out of a terminal really hurts the potential to meet other pilots.

There are people that have been at AMF 10+ years that are just waiting for SWA to come knocking down their door, that just doesn't happen. They are waiting among the tens of thousands of regional, charter, and corporate captains.

And I'm sure a vast majority of them likely don't have much help in the form of internals and going to job fairs.

 

[Inverted]

That is 4 people in god knows how long that went to 121 other than a regional. And I think at least 2 of them were flying the Bro, 1 in the Metro and I am not sure about the other.

It is all about who you know, but it isn't like you can just shake random hands in a terminal and get a job recommendation. Most people know other people from college, or the flight school etc. And I would argue that networking at a regional will yield less results right now. Nobody is leaving the regionals, yet you can make friends with somebody at AMF and almost guarantee they are going somewhere else relatively soon. Anyone can take the day off and go to a job fair. There is just no link between AMF and SWA, or any other major for that matter. The requirements have changed, because the gap in technology from AMF to modern equipment continues to grow. Allegiant might prove to be a fantastic way to get into 121 for AMF guys and it's a great company. There are many other ways to network other than passing a United CA in the hallway. Forums like these, FB and other social media sites are great ways to meet people.

 

[chrisreedrules]

Would it be a mistake to work for a freight company, build the 1,000TPIC, then move on to a regional? Or would it be best just to do the regional thing from the get-go if that is the plan? My biggest thing is I just don't want to work for a regional right now...

 

[Inverted]

Wouldn't be a mistake no. It just depends on what your end goal is. If you think you can go from freight directly to a major, you might be waiting for a while. When I say I know people who have been waiting 10+ years assuming that a major is going to come knocking down their door I'm not kidding. What freight companies tell new employees, and reality are way different. Getting your 1000TPIC then going to a regional is not a bad idea. But that's 3-4 years of lost seniority at a regional, which is 3-4 years more away from making CA. I think going freight and expecting a miracle is a mistake. It's a mistake a lot of people make which is why the attrition is absurd. The whole "pilot shortage" thing is really crap. I think people are starting to see that as well.

 

[N8389P]

The past 7 years I know of 1 to ups on 757 flying the metro, 1 to the 777 at Cathay from the e120/metro. A few guys to Omni that were metro guys.

 

[learhawkerbe400]

Over 20 of the 50 pilots at my tanker squadron work for FedEx/ ups. Probably the best way to get there, statistically speaking.

 

[Maurus]

The past 7 years I know of 1 to ups on 757 flying the metro, 1 to the 777 at Cathay from the e120/metro. A few guys to Omni that were metro guys.

And considering that in those seven years none of the majors really did much hiring. Not bad for the size of the pilot group IMO. The small sample size will always make it seem like no one ever goes to the majors. Will you get there solely because you worked at AMF? No, but you can get there he same way others have from other areas in aviation.

 

[Cal Goat]

Would it be a mistake to work for a freight company, build the 1,000TPIC, then move on to a regional? Or would it be best just to do the regional thing from the get-go if that is the plan? My biggest thing is I just don't want to work for a regional right now...

I once thought like you're thinking right now. Here is the answer that I have found via my experience. The safest bet long-term would be to just get into one of the better regionals ASAP because seniority, seniority, seniority.

Despite the wonderful tales of exceptional career luck you will hear in these forums, AMFers that go directly to the majors are such a minority that planning on being one of them would be dangerous gamble of your time. If you do go to AMF, you will probably get to listen to Andrew Lotter (or whoever the director of flight ops is now) tell you how any regional will hire you after you've flown for Ameriflight. And this brings me to a very important fact: Most AMFers these days end up going to a regional anyway. I know an AMF chief pilot with well over 1000TPIC still waiting for the majors to call him back.

So, if you're playing the numbers for long term success, just go to a [good] regional right now and skip AMF. That is, unless you wish to tour the crappiest layovers in America as part of some cultural experience.

 

[Tommay85]

I once thought like you're thinking right now. Here is the answer that I have found via my experience. The safest bet long-term would be to just get into one of the better regionals ASAP because seniority, seniority, seniority.

Despite the wonderful tales of exceptional career luck you will hear in these forums, AMFers that go directly to the majors are such a minority that planning on being one of them would be dangerous gamble of your time. If you do go to AMF, you will probably get to listen to Andrew Lotter (or whoever the director of flight ops is now) tell you how any regional will hire you after you've flown for Ameriflight. And this brings me to a very important fact: Most AMFers these days end up going to a regional anyway. I know an AMF chief pilot with well over 1000TPIC still waiting for the majors to call him back.

So, if you're playing the numbers for long term success, just go to a [good] regional right now and skip AMF. That is, unless you wish to tour the crappiest layovers in America as part of some cultural experience.

I dunno, look at the guys that have been a Pinacoloba for 4-7 years. FO time only with barely 600-800 hours of PIC time from CFI days. They're going to be starting over by the end of this year or next. The exceptional FOs will go to JetBlue or USAirways. This is about as normal as a freight feeder guy doing going to a major though. Maybe less than considering how many FOs are out there.

It's fun to try and out-think the industry, but you can't.

I'm not arguing that coming to AMF is a short cut either. I don't really know what I'm arguing actually. Perhaps there might be something to getting some TPIC time, or PIC time period here first(at least having it in your back pocket), and then getting some FO time at a regional. There's that trying to think thing going on again....

At the same time though, this you're right about seniority. I've got two buddies at Air Whiskey. One month seniority apart. One is able to get 10 days off in a row per month, the other is stuck on perpetual 4on3off work weeks.

 

[Inverted]

And considering that in those seven years none of the majors really did much hiring. Not bad for the size of the pilot group IMO. The small sample size will always make it seem like no one ever goes to the majors. Will you get there solely because you worked at AMF? No, but you can get there he same way others have from other areas in aviation.

You say small pilot group but there is a constant revolving door of guys who stay 2-4 years, get their time and get out. To me that's a huge pilot population. And you may be incorrect about getting to the majors if indeed it's true that companies like SWA want turbofan time. I have heard that before from several current SWA pilots. That eliminates AMF from the running all together.

 

[jmreii]

Is it common to go from working an operation like Ameriflight or another 135 freight company to somewhere like UPS/FedEx? What is the normal career progression to one of the "Major" freight haulers? I usually hear about guys going from Ameriflight etc to a regional or other airline or 135 Px Charter and not on up the "freight chain". Just trying to get some clarification on the path beyond working for a 135 freight outfit and building all the TPIC.

Once upon a time this was a possible situation. I know one person who went from the left seat of a Amflight BE-99 to the flight engineer seat of a 727, she was well connected. I went did part 135 freight, 121 regional, part 135 freight, 135 jet, FedEx management, before making the climb to the big house. I do not believe Amflight has jets any longer therefore to be competitive you will need to get some jet time somewhere and don't forget to network.

 

[Cal Goat]

I dunno, look at the guys that have been a Pinacoloba for 4-7 years. FO time only with barely 600-800 hours of PIC time from CFI days. They're going to be starting over by the end of this year or next. The exceptional FOs will go to JetBlue or USAirways. This is about as normal as a freight feeder guy doing going to a major though. Maybe less than considering how many FOs are out there.

It's fun to try and out-think the industry, but you can't.

I'm not arguing that coming to AMF is a short cut either. I don't really know what I'm arguing actually. Perhaps there might be something to getting some TPIC time, or PIC time period here first(at least having it in your back pocket), and then getting some FO time at a regional. There's that trying to think thing going on again....

At the same time though, this you're right about seniority. I've got two buddies at Air Whiskey. One month seniority apart. One is able to get 10 days off in a row per month, the other is stuck on perpetual 4on3off work weeks.

I specified "good" regionals. Ain't nobody saying FO's will go directly to the majors. I have never had that delusion.

All I'm saying is that I've now seen both sides of this question and QOL as a first year FO (at what I consider to be a good regional) on reserve is already very noticeably better than AMF. That's saying a lot. I think guys who are riding it out long term at AMF will be excellent candidates for corporate or air ambulance, but it seems that in the current state of the industry, they will not be ideal candidates for the majors.

I could be wrong in 4 or 5 years, but all I know for certain right now is that I'm personally happier.