Question for you FAR Guru's


Well-Known Member
Question for you FAR Guru\'s

I may have an oppertunity to do some flying for the company I'm currently working for. We build display cabinets for crystal and the owner is thinking of leasing a light twin to fly to shows. I will be the pilot and salesman. More than likely there will be no one else with me but I may have a demo display case that will go to a show with me and come home with me.

My question: 250TT 60ME; Comm., Inst., AMEL, ASEL. I have read the AC on private carriage vs. common carriage but I can't seem to put it all in my brain and understand it. Am I legal or not?? Thanks for your help.
Re: Question for you FAR Guru\'s

I believe that would fall under the private pilot privileges and limitations - 61.113 (b).

(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:

(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and
(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or hire.

I think...

Re: Question for you FAR Guru\'s

A carrier becomes a common carrier when it "holds itself out" to the public, or to a segment of the public, as willing to furnish transportation within the limits of its facilities to any person who wants it.

There are four elements in defining a common carrier;
(1) a holding out of a willingness to
(2) transport persons or property
(3) from place to place
(4) for compensation.

Carriage for hire which does not involve "holding out" is private carriage. Private carriage for hire is carriage for one or several selected customers, generally on a long term basis

As a commercial pilot you can fly for others and get paid for it. You can also do a handful of things as enumerated in 119.1(e).

Who owns the plane, and more importantly who has operational control of the aircraft, is key. Holding out in this case has nothing to do with it.

The Feds have consistently looked at the issue of operational control as a determining factor in whether the operation falls under part 135.

As the pilot, the further you distance yourself from the procurement of the aircraft the better. It needs to be a situation where the passengers have obtained the plane, and then select you to fly them. With the help of a competent aviation attorney a dry lease could be set up where you, the owner of the aircraft, lease it to your passengers, and then they - with total freedom to choose whomever they wish - hire their pilot.

As a commercial pilot, if you want to fly people from one place to the next and get paid for it, you may work for an operation or an individual who employes you to fly their plane or to fly other people on their plane.

But if you want to do it in your plane, you will be acting as a commercial operator under part 135 or 121, depending on the specifics. For that, you must also meet those requirements of 135 or 121.

So the bottom line is, if you own the plane, you are a commercial operator. If he/she/they own the plane, you are an employee.

If you own the plane, then sightseeing, photography, and certain other operations are not covered by FAR 119, but transportation that involves taking people or property from one place to another is either common or noncommon carriage, and therefore is governed under 119 and either 135 or 121.

"Private carriage insofar as FAA operating authority is required, is all that carriage for compensation or hire which is not common. See: Section 1.1 of the Federal Aviation Regulations defining the term "commercial operator." The focus here is on specialized carriage of either passengers or cargo pursuant to a small number of contracts secured by means which do not constitute a holding out to the general public. The FAA issues Commercial Operator Certificates to persons who operate large aircraft in air commerce as private carriers."

From Order 8700.1
(3) Private Carriage: FAR Part 125 is applicable to large airplane operations in other than common carriage. FAR 125.11(b) prohibits FAR Part 125 certificate holders from conducting any operation which results directly or indirectly from holding out to the general public. FAR Part 125 operators are permitted to furnish transportation to employees or other persons as long as compensation does not exceed the requirements of FAR 91.181(d).

The following matters indicate private carriage, although any single item may not be dispositive:

(1) Highly specialized carriage and the absence of holding out to the general public. (Note that a carrier's operation under contracts for customers entirely unrelated to each other indicates a holding out to the general public.)

(2) Limitation of the carrier's services to one person or company or to a particular few persons or companies who contract with the carrier.

(3) The existence of long term, mutually binding, written contracts.

(4) The absence of day-to-day solicitation or acceptance of new customers.

Private carriage ordinarily entails a highly specialized type of carriage.

Personally I'd safe your safe, but the question then becomes is your company legal?

Re: Question for you FAR Guru\'s

Yeah, I'd say you could do it like a corporate Part 91 deal. The insurance company may have other ideas, however.
Re: Question for you FAR Guru\'s

I think this would fall under the "incidental to employment" provision. But I'd check with an aviation lawyer to be sure.
Re: Question for you FAR Guru\'s

Seirra's post is well done.

As also stated above the largest issue will be insurance. unlike you going out and buying an airplane and flying for fun aviation insurance for commercial use/business use, if a HUGE expense. With small jets it is in the six digit range. Putting a pilot with under 1200 hrs on board brings it down, and making that guy the PIC would cost as much as the airplane.

Call AOPA and just say you are looking to buy an airplane ( tell them you want a senaca) and want to know what the insurance would run.

You will need at least

Hull coverage at replacement value
$1,000,000 per incident for liability
$1,000,000 per person.
(tell them you want it for a million smooth, they will understand)

Then (what I do) you should have an umbrella policy for yourself. This in an insurance polcy for when you go screaming through the fence at the end of the runway and chop up somebody’s dog, they can take you to court ( the aviation ins will cover it) then if they come after you on top of that you still have a barrier. ( personally I think we are over insured, but better to be ahead than behind…)

It can be done, but for it to work for a business issue you reallllly need to do the home work, look into hanger costs, because you are not going to leave a ‘working’ airplane outside, maintenance etc. then pick up a copy of Trade a plane and look at the twins,,,

Her is a data dump of many, not sure how it will post on here but it is a start.

Year Make/Model/Category Airframe Time Engine Time City State Price Phone #

Piper Seminole - Other Tulsa OK
SEVERAL PIPER SEMINOLES TO CHOOSE from. For sale or lease. Inventory constantly changing. Aircraft leasing. 152, 172, 172RG's, 172R's, 172SP'S & Duchess, by the hour, flexible terms to fit your needs. "Export Experts". Bill or Sam, Christiansen Aviation, Tulsa, OK/(877) 331-5550; FAX (918) 298-1388. 331-5550Last Modified: 08/07/2003

Piper Navajo C/R Brookville OH
SEVERAL NICE NAVAJOS for sale! Jeff Parker, (937) 833-4820, 833-4820Last Modified: 07/30/2003

Piper Seneca II Clearwater FL
SENECAS!!! SENECAS!!! Senecas!!! If you are in the market to buy, sell or trade call the Seneca Experts. We know the market better than anyone. Call today, FL/(727) 535-6115 535-6115Last Modified: 08/01/2003

1980 Piper Seminole 4800 200 Mildura
PIPER SEMINOLE 1980, VH PBP IFR, total hrs. 4800. Engines O360T's 200 hrs. with all new cylinders and camshafts since overhaul. Propellers, 300 hrs. since overhaul. Radio, 2x King VHF, 1x HF, RMI +HIS with KFX200 autopilot, non TSO GPS coupled Ao H.S.I., always hangared, owned since new. $240,00 T. (Australia dollars). Contact Jack Funnell Bus. 03 5023 4024. AH 03 5023 4530. Last Modified: 08/19/2003

1968 Piper Navajo 10200 50 Garner NC $189,000
PIPER PA-31-310 1968 Navajo, TT 10,200, 50hrs on L&R since factory overhauls, crank AD complied with, LP 50hrs SOH, RP 450hrs SOH, full de-ice, color radar, IFR GPS, Corporate use last 3 years. $260K invested, sacrifice for $189,000. NC/(919) 740-0069. No brokers please. (919) 740-0069Last Modified: 07/07/2003

2001 Piper Seneca V 275 275 Alpharetta GA
DON'T MISS OUT ON THIS gorgeous, loaded, one owner aircraft! Only 275 TTSN! Has fresh annual, warranty until December 2003, Goodrich "Skywatch" & WX-500 stormscope. Very nice & always hangared. 2001 Seneca V, N53347, S/N:3449221. 275-TTAE. NDH, Garmin w/STEC AP/FD, RDR-2000 VP RDR w/Avidyne, deice, A/C, copilot insts., more! Inquire/ make offer. Contact Phil Scharber Aircraft Sales, GA/(678) 566-0488; cell# 662-2031; FAX 566-0489.

1976 Piper Seneca II 8500 2043 Watertown WI $77,500
BEST BUY! 1976 DEICED Seneca II, 8500 TT, 2043 SMOH, annual due June, ex-135, Narco radios, M-3 GPS, intercoolers, average P&I, NDH, steal @ $77,500. WI/(920) 261-4567, or

1975 Piper Seneca II 2318 530 Poughkeepsie NY
BEAUTIFUL 1975 PIPER SENECA II, Possibly lowest time in USA. 2318 TTSN, 530/530 SMOH, 285/285 on McCauley hot props, new Seneca V paint & leather interior, club seating, refreshment center, new digital Nav/Coms, Garmin /GPS moving map, coupled A/P, built-in intercoms, polished spinners, etc. Complete original logs, NDH, fresh annual just completed 6/1/03. Beautiful aircraft for someone- priced for immediate sale. Call owner: NY/(845) 471-4983 or (914) 456-2878. (845) 471-4983Last Modified: 08/11/2003

1970 Piper Navajo 10161 1123 Oskaloosa IA $149,900
BEAUTIFUL 1970 PIPER NAVAJO PA31-310, 10,161-TT, 1452/1123 SMOH. New: P&I 2000, Tanis heater, turbochargers, Garmin transponder. Boots. Recent Part 135. Price reduced $10,000. $149,900. CO/(303) 682-0340. (303) 682-0340Last Modified: 08/11/2003

1999 Piper Seneca V 485 Hampton Bays NY $410,000
ATTENTION: SENECA V BUYERS! Wholesale 1999 Seneca V for $410,000! Coming in trade! 485 hours total time. One owner since new. Always hangared, mint condition, looks as new. Fresh annual. King Silver Crown avionics with KLN90B GPS. No damage. Barta-Iso Aviation, PHN: NY/(631) 728-7375; FAX-7376 (631) 728-7375Last Modified: 08/06/2003

2002 Partenavia Washington DC
VULCANAIR IS NOW SHIPPING new 2003 P68 Series aircraft! Call us at: (202) 625-4347; 1-(866) BUY-VULC or Fax (202) 625-4363. Original certified airframe parts are only available through Vulcanair. http://www.vulcanair-usa.comE-mail: (202) 625-4347Last Modified: 08/04/2003

1977 Piper Seneca II 8400 800 Tigard OR $135,000
1977 PIPER SENECA II TURBO Propeller Aircraft. Excellent condition. 8400 TT, 800 SMOH. Annual completed 4/6/03. Original log books. All AD's and SB's. IFR, de-icing package. Contact Craig WA/(425) 239-2825. OR/WA area. $135,000 OBO. (425) 239-2825Last Modified: 08/06/2003

1977 Piper Seneca II 2220 697 Deep River CT $125,000
1977 SENECA II FOR SALE or trade, 2220 TT, 879/697 SREM , Factory Gold Medallion "EB" engines, pre heaters, new Trunion HD brakes, Hartzell prop. Complete logs, NDH, hangared and meticulously maintained. KWX-58 color gyro stabilized radar big dish, KX175B, KR85 ADF, HSI, C-III autopilot. Long fuel M-60 GPS, annual 11/03. Paint, new in 90'S, white with red stripes, new red fabric interior with hi back club seats, new in 97'. Asking $125,000 or best offer. Will trade for Arrow (no "T" Tails please) or newer Cutlass. Located in Chester, CT 3B9. Contact Chris at CT/(860) 526-4273 or FARACRES@MSN.COMWill consider all offers. (860) 526-4273Last Modified: 07/30/2003

1981 Piper Seneca III 4805 1330 Lake Charles LA $195,000
1981 PIPER SENECA III Model PA-34-220T, (N15FS), 4805TT, LE-464 SMOH, RE-1330 SMOH, Bendix color radar, King 200 F/D, King radio pkg., Morrow Apollo GPS, IFR, strikefinder, hot props, de-ice, air conditioned, hangared, excellent maintenance, excellent paint & leather. $195,000. LA/(337) 433-6311or LA/(337) 436-9492. (337) 433-6311Last Modified: 07/29/2003

1976 Piper Navajo 5250 310 Moorestown NJ
1976 COLEMILL NAVAJO, 5250TT, 310/310 SMOH, S/N#31-7612110, King KY197, KX1255, KNS80, Bendix IN-831 HSI, King DWX-56 digital color radar, Northstar M3 coupled, Argus 7000 moving map coupled all Navs, Piper Alt. 5 autopilot, Shadin digital fuel mgmt, NIAC fuel, full deice and more. A real nice executive aircraft. Don, NJ/(856) 235-3817. (856) 235-3817Last Modified: 07/22/2003

2003 Piper Seneca V Muncie IN
2003 SENECA, N390MA, Factory New, "EFIS", RDR-2000 VP Radar, A/C, Full De Ice, Alt Pre Select, 3 Blade Props, 02, KDM-850 MFD, Yaw Damper, Prop Sync, Khaki Leather Seats, Pilot School, Full Factory Warranty, Cruise 197 KTS, Range Over 800 NM. Muncie Aviation Company, IN/(765) 289-7141, (765) 289-0145 Fax. http://www.muncieaviation.com (765) 289-7141Last Modified: 08/01/2003

2003 Piper Seneca V Muncie IN
2003 SENECA V, FACTORY new, Meggett "Magic" EFIX, GNS-530 & 430, GMA-340, GTX-327, A/C, full deice, O2, prop sync., C-P instruments, 2 year warranty & pilot school. Dealer for IN, OH, IL & KY. Muncie Aviation Company, IN/(765) 289-7141, (765) 289-0145 Fax, http://www.muncieaviation.com (765) 289-7141Last Modified: 08/01/2003

2003 Piper Seneca V Grand Rapids MI
2003 PIPER SENECA V: New Garmin GNS 530/430 Comb. Pkg. The world's most popular light twin, even better! Order your specifications today. Call Kris Layson, Northern Air, Inc. MI/(800) 262-4953; (616) 336-4773; cell (616) 446-5991. See photos at (800) 262-4953Last Modified: 08/20/2003

2002 Piper Seneca V Ft Lauderdale FL
2002 SENECA V, W/PRICE reduced. 5-year airframe warranty. Full Garmin avionics package, radar, air, deice & oxygen. Call Art Spengler, FL/(800) 903-8402; FAX (954) 771-3452. art.spengler@premieraircraftsales.com (800) 903-8402Last Modified: 07/23/2003

Piper Seneca V Palo Alto CA $681,545
2002 PIPER SENECA V, N5361R, RDR2000 VP radar, oxygen, de-ice, prop sync. Aircraft leaseback guarantee available. Call for details. $681,545. CA/(650) 354-1399. (650) 354-1399Last Modified: 08/01/2003

2002 Piper Seneca V 190 Peachtree City GA $639,000
2002 NEW PIPER SENECA V. This twin is hot!!!! Only 190 hrs-TTSN! Beautiful, one owner aircraft. Garmin 530/430, GTX-327 Tx, RDR-2000, Avidyne 750 MFD, S-Tec 55X A/P w/pre-select. Stormcope, Skywatch, GDL-49 Wx Downlink. AM/FM/CD, full de-ice group, factory oxygen system, prop sync. White over black w/gold metallic & maroon trim. Excellent condition and ready for immediate delivery. Don't let this one get away!!! $639,000. SouthEast Piper, Peachtree City GA/(877) FLY-PIPER (359-7473). FAX (850) 576-4210. http://www.sepiper.comsales@sepiper.com (850) 576-4210Last Modified: 07/28/2003

2001 Piper Seneca V 290 290 Alpharetta GA
2001 SENECA V, N5016G, S/N-211. 290-TTAE. Loaded, one owner, NDH, Garmin w/STEC AP/FD, RDR-2000 VP radar w/Avidyne display, Skywatch, WX-500, Deice, A/C, copilot insts., fresh annual, more! Warranty 12/03. Call for price, bring offers. Contact Phil Scharber Aircraft Sales, GA/(678) 566-0488; cell# 662-2031; FAX 566-0489. philscharber@bellsouth.net (678) 566-0488Last Modified: 07/11/2003

2000 Piper Seneca V 375 San Jose CA
2000 SENECA V; 375 TT, DUAL Garmin GNS-430, RDR-2000 VP radar, S-Tec 55 AP/FD/YD, altitude alert/ preselect. Lafferty Aircraft Sales, CA/(408) 293-5352; (408) 293-5352Last Modified: 08/11/2003

1999 Piper Seneca V 1064 x CA $425,000
1999 SENECA V. $425,000. 1064 TT. Gorgeous in & out w/2000 avionics package. A/C in CA. Call Bill, WA/(360) 357-4893. http://www.totalperformanceaircraft.com (360) 357-4893Last Modified: 08/19/2003

1999 Piper Seneca V 1060 x France
1999 PIPER SENECA V. N1068U, S/N 34-49151. 1060 TT. Dual KX165, KLN90B, RDR2000 vertical profile, KFC-150 autopilot w/altitude pre-select IFR, known ice, 6 place intercom, oxygen, 128 gal. tanks, co-pilot instr., grey leather excellent P&I. Based in France. Boutsen Avition, tel. +377-93-30-80-02. Fax +377-93-30-80-05. Last Modified: 07/28/2003

1999 Piper Seneca V 890 Leawood KS $479,500
1999 PIPER SENECA V, 890 TT, full deice, Garmin 530, KFC-150 AP, alt. pre-select/ alerter, RDR-2000, 6-seats, door seal, blue/ white/ gray/ red pin stripes. $479,500. KS/(816) 590-1999, (913) 851-8808; FAX (913) 685-0785. Will trade. (816) 590-1999Last Modified: 08/06/2003

1998 Piper Seneca V 946 New Century KS
1998 SENECA V, 946TT, loaded, ice, air, radar, Argus color moving map, WX-500 stormscope, altitude pre-select, oxygen, white, red, blue and gold, Topaz leather 6 seats, May annual at Piper Service Center. No damage history. Call Kansas Aircraft Corporation, KS/(913) 782-8212, Fax 782-8214. (913) 782-8212Last Modified: 07/11/2003

1997 Piper Seneca V 840 840 Houston TX $359,000
1997 SENECA V, 840 TT, 840 SNEW, immaculate. A/C, co-pilot instruments, digital engine monitor, KLN90B GPS, dual KX165 NavComs, KT71 transponder, KN62A DME, RDR2000 radar, KR87 ADF, HSI, KFC150 A/P, stereo, prop sync., 3-blade prop, NDH. Perfect logs, $359,000. Call Richard Marks, TX/(281) 615-3239. (281) 615-3239Last Modified: 08/08/2003

1995 Piper Seneca IV 1627 Marshalltown IA
1995 SENECA IV, 1627 TT, IFR GPS, color radar, air, full deice, excellent condition, excellent history. Midland Aircraft, IA/(641) 792-1292. (641) 792-1292Last Modified: 08/04/2003

1994 Piper Seneca IV 2075 Des Moines IA
1994 SENECA IV, N9223R, 2075 TT, 350/350 SFRM, King, deice, air condition. IA/(515) 256-5600. (515) 256-5600Last Modified: 07/11/2003

1992 Piper Seneca III 1950 1950 Hayward CA $199,000
1992 SENECA III, 1950 TTAF&E, King avionics, copilot instruments, new paint/ interior. Asking $199,000. Call CA/(510) 781-0165. (510) 781-0165Last Modified: 08/08/2003

1990 Piper Seminole 660 660 Export PA $245,000
1990 SEMINOLE, 660-HRS TTA&E, KNS80, RNAV, KFC150 A/P coupled, HSI, KY197A Com, KX155 Nav/Com, WX10, KR87 ADF, EDM-760 engine analyzer, new ceramic heater, electric DG, KMA24H intercom- 4-pl., KT76A xpondr, Garmin 196, unfeathering accumulators, recon lights, Dec. annual, hangared, NDH. $245,000. PA/(724) 387-3501; rpfoxiv@aol.com (724) 387-3501Last Modified: 08/19/2003

1989 Piper Seneca III 1530 200 Meridian MS
1989 SENECA III, 1530 TT, 200/ 200 STOH, 200 SPOH. AC, known ice, nice paint & interior, always hangared, fresh annual w/purchase, will wholesale. Contact Skip or David, MS/(601) 485-7800. (601) 485-7800Last Modified: 08/04/2003

1983 Piper Seneca III 4260 550 Eugene OR $185,000
1983 SENECA III, 4260TT, engines 641/550 SOH. King avionics, 6-place oxygen, Known icing, cold weather start, extended fuel tank, wing tip strobes, HD brakes, power tow. $185,000. Call, OR/(541) 607-9915. reid@heli-jet.com (541) 607-9915Last Modified: 08/01/2003

1983 Piper Navajo 478 Fresno CA $349,000
1983 PIPER TRUBO NAVAJO 310C, N4115T, S/N 31-8312011. Lowest time in the world! 1940TT, vertually new condition! Only 2 private owners, hangared since new, 478 SMOH both engines FWF w/new factory cylinder assemblies (Feb 1996), props 635 SOH (Dec 1993 s/new style hubs). All SBs/ ADs c/w, NDH, Bendix- King digital avionics, color radar, KFC-200 AP/FD, stereo phone, co-pilot instruments, air conditioned, VG kit, cargo & crew door, recognition lights, oxygen, intercom system, 8th seat, potty, Dec 2002 annual, training included. $349,000. Central CA Av; Fresno, CA/(559) 252-2926. (559) 252-2926Last Modified: 08/18/2003

1983 Piper Seneca III 2800 850 Kokomo IN $229,500
1983 PIPER SENECA III, 2800TT, 850/850 SMOH, 600/600 SPOH, NDH, long range tanks, oxygen, known ice, factory air, Garmin 430, radar and much more. $229,500. Call, IN/(765) 864-5364 x215 lv msg. Email steve@glenndale.netSee pictures and specs at (765) 864-5364Last Modified: 07/15/2003

1983 Partenavia 9700 450 N Miami Beach FL $119,000
1983 PARTENAVIA P68C, TTAF 9700, TTE L-1470, R-450, props 0 hours, fresh annual, NDH, int/ext 9, $119,000. FL/ (786) 302-0999. (786) 302-0999Last Modified: 08/19/2003

1982 Piper Seminole 3237 623 Scottsdale AZ
1982 TURBO SEMINOLE, 3237TT, 623/1749 SMOH, Garmin 430/340, King digital, loaded, beautiful! Call for price, photos, details, AZ/(480) 951-6270. (480) 951-6270Last Modified: 08/20/2003

1982 Piper Seneca III 3450 450 Doylestown PA $180,000
1982 SENECA III, 4600TT, ENG 450, PROP SN 25/25, annual due 01/04, all AD's complete, King Avionics, KWX56 radar, KSC200 w/FD, KNS80 RNav/ DME, 6-place intercom, M1 Loran, fuel flow, new paint-2002, interior-2001, known-ice certified, HSI, $174,000. Priced to sell! NY(631) 433-1264. (631) 433-1264Last Modified: 07/22/2003

1982 Piper Seneca III 6353 1527 Owensboro KY
1982 PIPER SENECA III, 6353 TT, engines 1527 SOH, props 350 SOH, known ice, color radar, King avionics. Pics & specs @ KY/(270) 926-6700. (270) 926-6700Last Modified: 08/04/2003

1982 Piper Navajo C/R 6270 1471 Nashville TN $225,000
1982 C/R NAVAJO, TT 6270, 1471 on engines since Lycoming factory OH, 1471 props. Dual King KY196 transceivers, KR87 ADF, KT76 transponder, King KNS80 DME/Rnav, Bendix 160 radar, King 200 autopilot/ flight director, yaw damper, certified known ice, air conditioning, oxygen, sales price $225,000. No damage, all AD complied, June 2004 annual. Please call Ralph Peeler or Bill Colbert at TN/(615) 226-4256 or (800) 525-4114 or http://www.peeler@colemill.com (615) 226-4256Last Modified: 08/08/2003

1981 Piper Seminole 1225 1225 Plainville CT $139,000
1981 TURBO SEMINOLE, 1225 TTA&E, 362 SPOH'S (3-blade), King Silver Crown IFR, recent P&I, very clean, $139,000. Barry Alexander, Interstate Aviation, Connecticut: (860) 747-5519. barryiai@aol.com (860) 747-5519Last Modified: 08/11/2003

1981 Piper Seneca III 4275 450 Watertown WI $195,000
1981 SENECA III: KNOWN ICE! GNS-430! Sperry color radar! Lots more! NDH! 135 current! 4275 TT, 450/931 FREMAN, $195,000. WI/920-261-4567, http://www.wisconsinaviation.com (920) 261-4567Last Modified: 08/20/2003

1981 Piper Seneca III 1537 333 New Century KS
1981 SENECA III, 1537TT, 1537/333 on the engines, 588/588 SPOH, Garmin 340/530/430, KFC-200 AP/FD, WX-500 stormscope, radar, known ice, Lopresti mods, factory corrosion proofing, Tanis heaters, new cosmetics in 2000, NDH. Call Kansas Aircraft Corporation, KS/(913) 782-8212. Fax (913) 782-8214. (913) 782-8212Last Modified: 08/01/2003

1981 Piper Navajo 5370 Augusta ME
1981 PA-31-310C, 45/235 Mattituck's, 5370 TT, full Ice, oxy, cargo door and more. Bendix 2000 system, Nav Programer w/DME, FCS-870 AP/FD/ HSI/ RMI. Current 135. NDH, full logs, all AD's, excellent! Must sell - make offer. ME/(888), 643-3597 or Fax specs (207) 622-7858. (207) 622-7858Last Modified: 08/01/2003

1980 Piper Seneca II 4478 1177 Abilene TX
1980 SENECA II: 4478-TT, 1177 hours SMOH; King equipped: KFC 200, KY197, KNS80; New Garmin 430, radar, AC, VG's; Excellent paint & interior, much more! Abilene Aero, TX/(325) 671-8004. (325) 671-8004Last Modified: 08/18/2003

1980 Piper Seneca II 1600 Edmonton AB $118,000
1980 SENECA II, K-ice, radar, AP, engines 1600 SMOH, NDH, excellent condition, nice paint and interior, priced to sell $118,000. Call (780) 890-1313 or e-mail (780) 890-1313Last Modified: 08/04/2003

1980 Piper Seneca II 5200 450 Altamonte FL $174,900
1980 SENECA II, 5200 TTSN, 450/450 SFRM, A/C, Sandel color HSI, Garmin 430, beautiful, fully restored aircraft. $174,900. FL/(407) 786-2443. (407) 786-2443Last Modified: 07/22/2003

1980 Piper Seneca II 4878 1247 Berryville AR $142,000
1980 PIPER SENECA II, TT 4878, 1377/1247 eng. (1800 TBO), 1057/220 props, King IFR, Cent. III A/P, WX10, Known Ice, O2, new paint, blue leather interior. $142,000. AR/(870) 423-4911. (870) 423-4911Last Modified: 07/22/2003

1980 Piper Seneca II 3500 1670 Philadelphia PA $149,900
1980 PIPER SENECA II, 3500TT, 1670 SMOH L/R, KX155, KCS55A, FMS5000, DME, KFC200 AP/FD, WX10A, all new boots 2002, speed brakes, Merlyn wastegates, 1-pc windshield, LoPresti cowls and tips, Factory 02. Sell price $149,900. Hortman Aviation. PA/(215) 969-0311, FAX: (215) 677-6408. http://www.hortmanaviation.com (215) 969-0311Last Modified: 08/11/2003

1980 Piper Navajo 6800 500 Westerly RI
1980 NAVAJO 310C, 6800TT, 500/600 SMOH L/R, (factory), 220 SPOH, full deice, air, 135 ready, Garmin 430s, KFC200, priced right. RI(401) 348-8877 phone/ fax. (401) 348-8877Last Modified: 08/11/2003

1979 Piper Seneca II 6750 1395 Watertown WI $129,000
1979 SENECA II: COLOR radar & stormscope, GPS, HSI, 3-bladed hot props, club, 135, 6750 TT, 1395 SMOH, April annual. $129,000 WI/(920) 261-4567, http://www.wisconsinaviation.comhttp// (920) 261-4567Last Modified: 08/11/2003

1979 Piper Seneca II 3875 386 Englewood CO $159,900
1979 SENECA II, S/N 7970436, 3875 hrs TT, 386/386 SMOH engines & props, KFC-200 AP/FD, Microline equipped, RDR-160 radar, fully De-Iced, nice P&I, $159,900. Call Willowbrook Air Associates, CO/(303) 790-0880. (303) 790-0880Last Modified: 07/29/2003

1979 Piper Seneca II 9150 755 Hilton Head Is SC $85,000
1979 SENECA II, 9150TT (just off 135), 755 SFRM/ 1188, nice panel, needs rear seats, paint and interior, solid aircraft, KFC-200 FD/AP, only $85,000 for quick sale. Call SC/(866) 836-3295 or (843) 836-2195. (866) 836-3295Last Modified: 08/11/2003

1979 Piper Seneca II 6495 1230 Sarasota FL $109,900
1979 SENECA II, 6495TT, 1230/ TBO SFOH, boots!! KFC 200 FD/HSI, King digital. $109,900. FL/(941) 350-7805. (941) 350-7805Last Modified: 08/20/2003

1979 Piper Seneca II 2338 379 St Petersburg FL $155,000
1979 SENECA II, 2338-TT, 379 R/L SMOH/ SPOH, factory air, club seating, 1999 P&I, HSI, Collins Navs, Coms, transponder, RDR160 radar, WX-8 stormscope, Skymap color moving map GPS, SL-50 GPS, JPI engine monitor and fuel scans, autopilot, speed mods, NDH. $155,000. Bill, FL/(727) 463-8505. (727) 463-8505Last Modified: 08/13/2003

1979 Piper Seneca II 4000 Osprey FL $190,000
1979 PIPER SENECA II, S/N 34-7970268, N510P, 4000TT, 375/375 SFRM, 375/375 SPOH, Garmin 430 GPS, Garmin 340 audio panel w/6-place intercom, King KCS 55A HSI, Altimatic IIIC autopilot, King 155 Nav/Com, Northstar NS-M-1 Loran, WX10A stormscope, King KRA10 radar altimeter, King KT76A transponder, air conditioning, 3-bladed hot props, hot plate, long range fuel, prop sync, inflatable door seal, Merlyn Automatic waste gates, Lopresti speed cowls, and wingtips w/recognition lights, Vortex generators. Interior 7/10, exterior 9/10. Beautiful Seneca V green on white paint. Always hangared, no damage history. Best Seneca II in the country! $190,000. FL/(941) 966-7375 or (386) 679-8414. (941) 966-7375Last Modified: 08/12/2003

1979 Piper Seneca II 3883 0 Fresno CA
1979 PIPER SENECA II, N2912V, wholesale! 3883TT, "0" SFRM engines, "0" props. Air conditioned, no de-ice. Central CA Av; Fresno, CA/(559) 252-2926. (559) 252-2926Last Modified: 08/18/2003

1979 Piper Seneca II 3672 Fremont CA $169,000
1979 PIPER SENECA II, 3672 TTAF, 0 SFOH, 672 SPOH, good comp. & oil. Well maintained and good running. Exterior rate 7, interior rate 8, gray leather. 3-blade hot props with known ice, air conditioned, equipped with Collins Microline, dual Nav/Com with glideslope, ADF, 2-transponders, DME, AP, RDR-160 radar, Garmin 430. Annual just completed August 2002. $169,000 OBO. CA/(530) 543-1690. (530) 543-1690Last Modified: 08/04/2003

1979 Piper Navajo C/R 5000 1400 Yorktown IN
1979 PIPER NAVAJO CR, TT5000, props & engs L&R 1400. Full de-ice, cargo door & wing lockers, A/C, Echo Flt MFD, Trimble 2000T GPS, KFC 200 AP/FD, RDR-160 radar, WX900 stormscope, radar alt, GEM 1200 eng mon, Shadin fuel flow mgmt, 02 system, co-pilot inst, 6-place intercom, NDH, P&I 8. Ann due 09/03. Call for specs, make offer. IN/(765) 759-9339; (765) 744-5950; Muncie, IN (MIE). (765) 759-9339Last Modified: 07/22/2003

1979 Piper Navajo C/R 3178 1678 San Juan PR $285,000
1979 PIPER NAVAJO C/R Panther, 3178 TTSN, R/L engines 1678 TTSN, 4-blade Q-tip props 177 TTSN, dual VHF-251, dual VIR-235, dual TDR-950, DME-451, KI-229, WX-10A, ADF 650-A, KFC-200/ FD. Bendix B/W radar, AMR-350, Nayak Nacelle fuel, A/C, V/G, Shadin fuel totalizer, American ultracooler. Known deice, electronic EGT, dual GEMs, co-pilot instruments, all cylinders cermichrome. Logs complete. Minor damage 6/95: N/G collapse on tarmac. Will sell w/completed annual. $285,000. Contact Cheman at FL/(305) 278-2279. (305) 278-2279Last Modified: 05/21/2003

1979 Piper Seneca II 4600 960 Cabot AR $147,500
1979 PA34-200T, 4600 TTAF, (EB)/960 SFRM, 3-blade props, Cold Factory A/C, Knot-2U speed mods, Garmin 430 (11/02) 340, Collins 231/351, Century 2000 (11/02), WX1000, $147,500. AR/(501) 231-1177. (501) 231-1177Last Modified: 08/20/2003

1979 Piper Navajo 7145 160 Spring Valley MN
1979 NAVAJO 310C PANTHER, 7145TT, 160/160 SMOH, 160/160 SPOH, Dual GPS, Garmin 430 and King KLN89B both IFR Approach certified, #2 NavCom Collins also Collins DME, ADF, transponder, KWX56 Color radar, PSE 7000B audio panel with 6-place stereo intercom, Aircell 1000 Flight Phone, KFC200 autopilot fully coupled to HSI, GEM engine monitor. No damage, 7-place leather interior, recent paint. MN/(800) 328-5920. View at (800) 328-5920Last Modified: 08/01/2003

1978 Piper Seneca II 3900 1750 Lincoln NE $103,000
1978 SENECA, 3900-TT, 1750-SMOH L&R, 200-SPOH L&R, 2 owners since new. Part 135. Club seating, known ice, KFC200 AP w/FD, King 55 HSI, Collins radios, stormscope, Apollo GPS, Nice Seneca. $103,000/OBO. Jeff, NE/(402) 416-2425. jeff@lincolnaviation.com (402) 416-2425Last Modified: 07/30/2003

1978 Piper Seneca II 4483 157 San Jose CA
1978 SENECA II; 4483 TT, 1597/157 SMOH, Collins Microline, Garmin 430, radar, Altimatic IIIC. Lafferty Aircraft Sales, CA/(408) 293-5352; (408) 293-5352Last Modified: 08/11/2003

1978 Piper Seneca II 5780 865 Eastsound WA $129,000
1978 SENECA II, 5780-TT, 865-SMOH, 2-Collins 251/351, Collins ADF, Altimatic IIIC AP, KLN-90B, boots, hot props, new Janitrol heater, VG kit, LoPresti speed kit, $129,000. Call Rugby Aviation, WA/(360) 376-7139. (360) 376-7139Last Modified: 06/11/2003

1978 Piper Navajo 2700 975 Prather CA
1978 NAVAJO PANTHER, 2700-TT, 975/975 SFOH, excellent records, excellent paint & interior, always hangared. CA/(888) 990-0055. (888) 990-0055Last Modified: 07/14/2003

1978 Piper Navajo C/R 4700 1130 Upper Saddle Riv NJ
1978 NAVAJO 325 C/R, 4700TT, engines and props 1130, intercoolers, winglets, VG's, all SB and AD, factory de-ice, air, oxygen, cargo door, NDH, annual 01/2003, Garmin GNS530, approach certified and coupled, DME, KN74 RNAV, radar. New rudder torque tube. No Lycoming engine issues. Call for complete spec information. NJ(201) 391-0374. (201) 391-0374Last Modified: 07/29/2003

1978 Piper Navajo C/R 3200 700 Alcoa TN
1978 CR NAVAJO, 3200 TT, 700/700 SFRM, $60K spent- UPS radios, GX50 GPS, MX20 MFD, terrain avoidance, Alt. X, color radar, known ice. NDH. Call Preston Aircraft, TN/(865) 970-9882; fax 9906. (865) 970-9882Last Modified: 08/11/2003

1977 Piper Seneca II 4000 200 Toledo OH $130,000
1977 SENECA, N767PD, 4000TT, 200SMOH/1295 SMOH, King avionics, $130,000 or trade for a newer Seneca. Private owner. OH/(800) 536-0718 ext 207; (800) 536-0718Last Modified: 08/05/2003

1977 Piper Seneca II 4450 1713 Greencastle IN $129,900
1977 SENECA II/III, N224AS, 4450TT, 1713/1670 SMOH, TSIO-360, LoPresti speed Mods & Horton STOL. Known ice, King - KMA 20 / KY 197 / KLN 90B / KY 76A / KNS 80 / KR 85 / KX 165 Insight strikefinder, PS Engineering PM100 intercom, oxygen, $129,900 IN/(765) 655-1658. (765) 655-1658Last Modified: 07/22/2003

1977 Piper Seneca II 3800 50 Columbia SC $165,000
1977 SENECA II, EXCELLENT condition, 3800TT, 150/50 SFRM, props and governor recent overhaul, hangared, NDH, fresh annual, all AD's complied, GX55 GPS, KNS80 RNav, KX155 Nav/Com, KY197 Com, HSI, stormscope, Century III autopilot, wing tip lights, 6 place intercom, $165,000. SC/(803) 960-8301. (803) 960-8301Last Modified: 07/28/2003

1977 Piper Seneca II 6540 480 Frederick MD $121,000
1977 SENECA II, 6540TT, 480L 580R, known ice, King digital panel, RNAV, M/map GPS, WX10, IIIC A/P, wingtip landing lights. $121,000. Brian: MD/(301) 631-5829. N78SF@aol.com (301) 631-5829Last Modified: 08/04/2003

1977 Piper Seneca II 5704 520 Asheville NC $154,900
1977 SENECA II, 5704TT, 520 SMOH, recent P&I, speed mods, known ice, III-C A/P, club seating, 520 SPOH, Collins IFR, KCS-55, strikefinder, Garmin 150XL, known ice. Beautiful aircraft, corporate maintained, always hangared, meticulous maintenance. $154,900. "Vicki", (New phone number!!!) NC/(828) 225-6517. http://www.vickivt.com (828) 225-6517Last Modified: 08/20/2003

1977 Piper Seneca II 4480 195 Harrisonburg VA
1977 SENECA II, 4480 TTAF, 210/195 SMOH (EB), 260/260 SPOH. Garmin 300XL- IFR cert, KX165, KT76A, DME, King HSI, PMA 7000M w/6 intercom, WX-900, CD music jack, Altimatic IIIC, long range fuel, AD log M/X, dual push-to talk, engine preheaters, inflatable door seals, Known ice. Piper anniversary paint scheme, no known damage. Make offer. VA/(540) 435-1437. (540) 435-1437Last Modified: 08/20/2003

1977 Piper Seneca II 2980 1430 Scottsdale AZ
1977 SENECA II, 2980 TT, 1430 SMOH, King digital, radar, M1, more! Original logs, nice. Call for price, photos, details, AZ/(480) 951-6270. (480) 951-6270Last Modified: 08/20/2003

1977 Piper Seneca II 5415 865 Minocqua WI $99,000
1977 PIPER SENECA II, PA-34-200T. TT 5415, LE 865 SFREMAN RE 1949 SMOH Props. 729 SPOH, extensive annual January 2003. K-Ice with 3 year old boots $99,000.00 Tel: WI/(715) 356-2875 email: schmerlattraum@msn.com (715) 356-2875Last Modified: 08/19/2003

1977 Piper Seneca II 5410 860 Minocqua WI $105,000
1977 PIPER SENECA II, PA-34-200T. TT 5410, LE 860SFREMAN RE 1944 SMOH Props. 724 SPOH, extensive annual January 2003. K-Ice with 2 year old boots $105,000.00 Tel: WI/(715) 356-2875 email: schmerlattraum@msn.com (715) 356-2875Last Modified: 06/12/2003

1977 Piper Seneca II 2997 300 Beaufort SC $150,000
1977 PIPER SENECA II (PA34-200T), 2997-TT. 300/300 SMOH. HSI, KLN89B GPS, Loran, Stormscope, autopilot. 7/7 interior & exterior. Fresh annual, $150,000. SC/(843) 263-5489. (843) 263-5489Last Modified: 08/20/2003

1977 Piper Navajo 50 Lawrenceville GA
1977 PIPER NAVAJO, ONLY 375/50 SMOH, 175 SPOH, King Silver Crown IFR, RDR-160 radar, autopilot/ flight director, full deice, Keith Freon air, factory oxygen. $189,000. Call GA/(770) 963-8229. (770) 963-8229Last Modified: 08/08/2003

1977 Piper Navajo 3059 428 Chamblee GA $245,000
1977 PIPER NAVAJO, 3059 TT, 428/428 SMOH, nicest Navajo in the country, new P&I, privately owned. Asking $245,000. Home: (770) 751-0405. Office: (770) 458-8034. Cell: (404) 277-1760. (770) 751-0405Last Modified: 07/03/2003

1977 Partenavia 7914 550 $110,000
1977 PARTENAVIA P68B, TT 7914, LE 650 SMOH, RE 550 SMOH, LP 740 SMOH, RP 780 SMOH, King package Century III A/P, L/R tanks, new interior, 9/10 paint, $110,000. Last Modified: 08/07/2003

1976 Piper Seneca II 3460 1974 New Orleans LA $89,500
1976 SENECA II, TT3460, LE/RE 1974/2018 factory reman., 280 L&R prop, IFR certified, GPS, DME, ADF, oxygen, LR tanks, AP IIIC axis. NDH, new annual. Reduced to $89,500. LA/(504) 288-3006. http://www.usaaircraft.com (504) 288-3006Last Modified: 08/01/2003

1976 Piper Seneca II 2880 0 Centerville TN $148,500
1976 SENECA II, TT-2880, engines 0-TSMO (1800hr TBO), Garmin GNS 530 GPS. $148,500. TN/(866) 270-2631. (866) 270-2631Last Modified: 08/20/2003

1976 Piper Seneca II 2612 0 Vero Beach FL $189,000
1976 SENECA II, PA34-200T, TTAF-2612, TTE 0/0, 1800 TBO, SPOH-2612/0, Garmin GNS530/ 430 Com/Navs GPS, Garmin GTX-327 transponder, Garmin GMA340 audio control, Goodrich WX500 stormscope, new side windows January 2003, new leather interior January 2003, new paint March 2003. Fresh annual January 2003. L/R 123.00 gal. total fuel. $189,000. Contact Paris, FL/(772) 770-2708 or pgc1961@aol.comhttp://www.parisair.com (772) 770-2708Last Modified: 06/27/2003

1976 Piper Seneca II 3976 28 Sarasota FL $139,000
1976 SENECA II, N4396X, $139,000. 3976TT, 28-SMOH L&R, 3-blade, new paint and leather interior. NY/(315) 375-6789. (315) 375-6789Last Modified: 08/04/2003

1976 Piper Seneca II 4867 750 Maple Grove MN $129,900
1976 SENECA II, 4867 TT, R.E. (EB) 1427 SMOH, L.E. (E) 750 SMOH. New interior, excellent paint, full de-ice (new boots), Tanis heaters, all AD's & SD's complete, Garmin 340, GNS-430 w/GS, GTX 327/ encoding, MB's, King 125 Nav/Com w/GS, DME, ADF, Altimatic IIIC w/GS coupled, WX10 stormscope, 6 place intercom, co-pilot A.I. Avionics Master Switch, NDH, logs complete, $129,900. MN/(763) 242-7301 ask for Dean (private party). (763) 242-7301Last Modified: 07/22/2003

1976 Piper Navajo C/R 5400 390 Lock Haven PA $169,500
1976 NAVAJO CR, 5400TT, 390/1020, 670 SPOH, full deice, King Silver Crown, KWX56 color, dual GS, Aug. 5000, Altimatic III, HSI, GPS, intercom, all logs, new style heater, Jan. annual, hangared, NMDH, price to sell. $169,500. PA/(570) 748-0820; Fax 748-3760. lhapa@adelphia.net (570) 748-0820Last Modified: 08/11/2003

1975 Piper Seneca II 4450 612 Scottsdale AZ
1975 SENECA II, asking $95,500. Gorgeous P&I, plastic, 4450TT, 612 SMOH, King loaded, GPS, alt. hold, intercom, clearance recorder. AZ/(480) 951-6270. (480) 951-6270Last Modified: 08/20/2003

1975 Piper Seneca II 3830 430 Northbrook IL $125,000
1975 SENECA II, 3830TT, 530 SFRML, 430 SFRMR, EB engines, dual KX170B, KN65, KR86, KLN90A GPS, KFC200 FD, HSI, Mono radar, intercom, LR tanks, known ice, O2, interior/ exterior good cond., detailed maint. history, $125,000. Gorman @ IL/(312) 364-8122 (days) or Tom @ IL/(847) 498-2630 x11(days), (847) 498-5987(eves); tom@tkjinc.comjgc@wmblair.com (312) 364-8122Last Modified: 05/21/2003

1975 Piper Seneca II 6130 395 Orlando FL $109,900
1975 PIPER SENECA II, PA34-T200, 6130 TT, LE-609 SMOH, RE-395 SFREM, fresh September annual, GEM1200 Graphic analyzer, 30 gallon long range Navelle tanks, KX175B/170B Nav/com, KN64 DME, Altimatic IIIC autopilot, wing tip lights, 4 place portable oxygen, 6 place ISO/ Com, 1996 paint & leather interior. Hangared. Professionally maintained includes Powertow. Reduced at $109,900 OBO. Contact: DinOn Sun @ FL/(407) 678-9926 or 927-6940. (407) 678-9926Last Modified: 08/11/2003

1975 Piper Seneca II 2304 323 Lake City TX $159,000
1975 PIPER PA-34-200T SENECA II, TT 2303.8, RE SMOH 322.9, R.P. SMOH 375.4; LE SMOH 351.2, LP SMOH 403.3. Asking $159,000. Call Tommy, TX/(386) 344-2000 or Greg, TX/(817) 907-4958. (386) 344-2000Last Modified: 08/04/2003

1975 Piper Navajo ON $180,000
1975 NAVAJO 600, radar, cargo door, HSI, 0-time engines, new boots, new paint. Exempt of AD2002-20-51. $180,000. Tel. CAN/(905) 677-2521; fax (905) 677-2634. (905) 677-2521Last Modified: 08/05/2003

1975 Piper Seneca II 3195 256 Ft Lauderdale FL $109,000
1975 3-BLADE SENECA II, 3195-TT, LE-256 & RE-254 SMOH (EB's), LP172 RP170 SNEW, King 155, Garmin 250XL GPS, Garmin 340 audio, BFG WX950 stormscope, Alt. IIIC A/P. Very clean, August annual. $109,000. Call Bob: FL/(954) 771-2502. (954) 771-2502Last Modified: 08/01/2003

1974 Piper Seneca I 4550 432 Scottsdale AZ $129,900
1974 SENECA I, RAJAY TURBOS, hangared Arizona, 4550TT, 432 SMOH L&R, LP 432 SMOH, RP 432 SNEW, Garmin 530/340, KX-155, KT-76C, KR-87, WX-10, oxygen, beautiful paint, recent interior, new windshield, very well maintained. $129,900. AZ/(602) 315-2055, (602) 568-7451, (602) 528-0560. (602) 315-2055Last Modified: 08/01/2003

1974 Piper Seneca I 10731 1005 Vero Beach FL $127,000
1974 SENECA 1 PA34-200, TTAF-10731, SFOH L&R 1005, 2000 TBO engines, IO-360C1E6, 200 hp, TTP 3787/ SMOH-1005, dual KX155 Nav/coms, KT76A, KMA24, KR87 ADF, WX950 stormscope, KLN94 GPS. 1 pc windshield. Annual May 2003. Leather interior/ paint September 2002. 93.00 US gallons. $127,000. Contact Paris, FL/(772) 770-2708 or pgc1961@aol.comhttp://www.parisair.com (772) 770-2708Last Modified: 06/27/2003

1974 Piper Navajo 7208 1126 Memphis TN $239,000
1974 PANTHER NAVAJO B: 7208 TT, 1126 on factory new 350hp engines, Garmin 530, KLN-90B, M1 Loran, KX-175B, WX-1000+, RDR-130, GRX-327 xponder, S-Tec 50 A/P w/preselect, Sandel HSI, full deice, air cond., Nacelle fuel tanks, cargo door, exec. int. $239,000. Planes of the South, TN/(901) 345-8356; Fax (901) 398-2682. (901) 345-8356Last Modified: 08/04/2003

1973 Piper Seneca I 4900 856 Miami FL $89,000
1973 SENECA I, TAIL N-103WA, only 4900 ACTT, 856 SMHO RE/LE, 25 prop TSOH, two KX97A, Nav 121/GS Nav 111/LOC, AT150 W/E 141 ADF 150, GPS digital tach new int 2002 ext. 8. Call Willie (809) 481-7863 or West FL/(305) 681-7619. US$89,000. Email omar@aircentury.com (809) 481-7863Last Modified: 07/11/2003

1973 Piper Seneca I 5400 2630 Bartonville TX $89,900
1973 SENECA I, 5400 TT, 725/2630 SFOH, slaved HSI, FD, KLN89B GPS, altimatic V FD-1, AP, 6-place intercom, 7th seat, gap seals. Paint 1998, interior 2000. $89,900. Jim, TX/(972) 839-6000. (972) 839-6000Last Modified: 07/29/2003

1973 Piper Seneca I 2880 Clinton AR $47,500
1973 PA34-200, 2880 TT, good avionics, nose gear area damage and prop strikes, excellent project, only $47,500. Call Will, Dawson Aircraft, AR/(501) 745-5300. View photos: (501) 745-5300Last Modified: 08/08/2003

1972 Piper Seneca I 3300 1440 Kansas City MO $135,000
1972 SENECA, RAYJAY TURBOS, full deice, 3300 TT, 1680/ 1440 SMOH, digital King avionics, WX-10 stormscope, Garmin GPS-150, Alt. IIIB-1 AP, KCS55A HSI, RH panel, Nov. 2002 annual. $135,000. Ozark, FL/(305) 233-6550 or MO/(816) 421-3333. (305) 233-6550Last Modified: 08/18/2003

1972 Piper Seneca I 5600 1670 Hamilton OH $58,500
1972 SENECA, 5600 TT, 1670 SMOH L&R, King equipped w/Autopilot, P&I 6, annual due 8/2003. Needs some avionics repair. Fly home for $58,500. Call Joe @ OH/(513) 896-9999. (513) 896-9999Last Modified: 07/21/2003

1972 Piper Seneca I 4183 92 Punta Gorda FL $109,500
1972 SENECA I, PA34-200, 4183TT, 1236/92 SMOH, props 75, IFR King, Apollo loran, intercom, DME, AP, P&I average, annual 4-03, $109,500. Mod Works, Ind., Rob Rose, FL/(941) 637-6770. (941) 637-6770Last Modified: 07/15/2003

1972 Piper Seneca I 6644 848 Van Nuys CA $76,900
1972 SENECA I, 6644-TT, 2074/848 SMOH, new paint, $76,900. CA/(818) 780-3455. http://www.kenmcinturff.com (818) 780-3455Last Modified: 08/01/2003

1972 Piper Seneca I 5615 1670 Hamilton OH $61,500
1972 SENECA I, 5615 TTAF, 1670 SMOH L&R, 1020 SPOH L&R, King IFR, 6-pl intercom, III-B AP, decent P&I, great twin time builder or trainer. $61,500. Call Joe, OH/(513) 896-9999. (513) 896-9999Last Modified: 08/04/2003

1972 Piper Seneca I 7736 75 Sebastian FL
1972 SENECA I 7736TT, 75/75 SMOH, King IFR HSI, RMI, new paint, interior, glass. C.P inst & brakes. Many extras. Best offer. Will trade/ deliver FL/(772) 589-0800. (772) 589-0800Last Modified: 08/04/2003

1972 Piper Seneca I 7800 100 Phoenix AZ $99,000
1972 SENECA 1, 7800 TT, both engines 100 SMOH, L/prop new, R/prop 100-SOH, Collins radios, audio panel, KN64 DME, paint good, interior good, nose gear STC, $99,000. AZ/(602) 768-4639. (602) 768-4639Last Modified: 08/08/2003

1972 Piper Seneca I 5250 185 Mechanicsville VA $125,000
1972 PIPER SENECA-I, 5250TT, 185 SMOH both engines, 350 L&R prop, MX170B, KX175B,Trimbe 2000 GPS, KLN89B GPS, ALT IIIB-I autopilot, 6-place intercom. $125,000. VA/(804) 779-2958. (804) 779-2958Last Modified: 08/04/2003

1972 Piper Seneca I 6231 1261 Burlington NC $78,900
1972 PA34-200, N1230T. 6231 TTLE, 1261 SMOH by Triad Aviation, 621 SFOHRE. Garmin GPS150, King KMA-20 ILS receiver, dual King KY97A Nav/Coms, King KR85 ADF, Narco AT150 transponder, Narco 190 DME, Sigtronics SPA-400 intercom. $78,900. Contact Gary Herman, Burlington, NC/(800) 334-6437; Cell (336) 516-4724; Fax (336) 227-1258. (800) 334-6437Last Modified: 08/11/2003

1969 Piper Navajo 6835 1435 Fort Myers FL $119,900
1969 PA-31-310, 6835TT, 1435 SMOH, 10 SPOH, Narco/ King IFR, good P&I, only $119,900. FL/(239) 278-3113. (239) 278-3113Last Modified: 08/11/2003

1969 Piper Navajo 9020 1220 Great Bend KS $115,000
1969 NAVAJO , AS IS, where is, last annual 8/01, no logs prior to 1996, extensive annual and updates completed 12/'96. Aircraft flew over 300hrs between 1997 and 2001. Estimated TT9020hrs. estimated TSMOH 1220hrs L, 1520hrs R, new P&I 1996, King equipped, more information on request. Asking $115,000. Midwest Aviation Sales, KS/(620) 792-4349. (620) 792-4349Last Modified: 07/23/2003

1968 Piper Navajo 6250 1025 Janesville WI $135,000
1968 NAVAJO 31-310, 6250 TT, 1025 SMOH, VanDusen, upgraded to TIO540-A2C, 3-bladed hot props, 575 SNEW, dual instruments, boots, hot w/s, Collins Microline, Nav, Com, audio selector, ADF, TXP, R-Nav, DME. KWX-56 color radar, slaved HSI, Trimble 2000T GPS, Telex ICS. 8 seats, potty, well maintained, excellent records, paint very good. $135,000. Tradewind International (800) 585-7004. WI/(608) 756-3632. Fax (608) 756-2606 info@tradewindinternational.com (800) 585-7004Last Modified: 08/11/2003

1968 Piper Navajo 8650 1680 Kutztown PA
1968 NAVAJO $120,000. 8650TT, 1680/220 SFOH, 800 SPOH. Priced to sell! PA/(215) 982-0020. drfrank@enter.net
Re: Question for you FAR Guru\'s

I too think this falls under incidental to business because your main job is not flying but sales. The company also owning/leasing the airplane takes some heat off you also. Even though you are demo a product for sale my understanding is that flying there is just a quicker way to be at the demo show. It would be just like them giving you a car to drive there for the show. The airplane itself is not producing the income. But like the others say if still confused or hestiate contact AOPA or an aviation attorney what can it hurt to ask.
Re: Question for you FAR Guru\'s

Incidental to employment has nothing to do with it.

Your employer has every right to handle a portion of his business by utilizing a plane. As a commercial pilot, you can certainly fly, and be compensated, for business flying. It's all considered Part 91 as long as he doesn't use the aircraft "for hire" - transporting people who are paying for the ride or cargo belonging to someone else in exchange for compensation. You and he need to be aware of the rules because if *he* breaks them *your* ticket will be at risk.

If he's buying the aircraft you can certainly have input and may help do the shopping. (Go for a Gulfstream - very nice "twin"!
) However, if it's going to be leased or rented you're better off not being involved in the transaction if at all possible. Many FBOs won't rent to someone who's not a pilot, and that's part of the problem.

Here's a great link on the subject. If you're not familiar with Doc's FAR Pages, you need to be.
Re: Question for you FAR Guru\'s

Nice explanation CJ and thanks for the link. I was not aware of that site. I was thinking samething in my earlier post because it would be like the employer giving him a car to drive for the demo. The employer is just utilizing the best means of transportation.
Re: Question for you FAR Guru\'s

Glad to help. It is something like using a car, only different! I could charge other people to ride in my car, but the FAA takes a dim view of that in my aircraft. (Narrow minded I call it!
) Anyway, I get your point. Commercial aviation is full of potential traps, both for aircraft owners and pilots. It pays to learn the rules and also to have a good aviation attorney in the "wings".

Doc's FAR Pages is a great reference. Doc used to be a part 61 consultant. Don't know if that's still one of his "hobbies", but he's "The Man" when it comes to understanding and interpreting the regs. He's always professional, full of accurate information, and has access to the right people at the FAA when a question arises. His main page contains several options, one of which is the forum for questions. There's another that contains numerous examples of logging vs acting since that also seems to come up a *lot*!

This is a nice forum. I registered a year ago and then forgot about it! My bad!
Re: Question for you FAR Guru\'s

"It is something like using a car, only different! I could charge other people to ride in my car, but the FAA takes a dim view of that in my aircraft"

I'm pretty sure if you charged people to ride in your car, then in most states you would need to get a CDL. Also insurance for using your car as a bussiness.Kinda like taxis.
Re: Question for you FAR Guru\'s

Thank you to all who responded to my question. As I understand it, the only way for me to be on the safe side is if the owner buys the aircraft and hires me as the pilot. Does that make me completely legal or are there still snags in there somewhere?

Unfortunately, I don't think the owner will go for buying a plane, eventhough he's loaded. I was hoping this oppertunity would rise and give me a shot at building some good time, but only time will tell.

The explanation by Sierra Pilot and CJ were very helpful and thanks for putting that bowl of literature into perspective.

If anyone else has some input by all means send it my way. Thanks again.