Question for MikeD...or anyone who knows.

naunga

naunga

New Member
Okay so I'm reading the 9/11 Commisison Report and they're talking about how the two alert F-15's were scrammbled from Otis AFB.

My question is this: How long does it take to get a fighter off the ground (roughly)? I mean obviously the pilot wouldn't do an entire pre-flight, but can they really just jump in a go?

Just curious.

Thanks.

Naunga
 
It just so happened that the USAF was conducting an excercise that needed alert aircraft. There are different levels of alert. The airacraft are pre-flighted before going on alert. So all the pilot's need to do is hop in startem up, fast taxi and take off. I know in the Navy when we have alert 5 the aircraft is already positioned and attached to the catapault. The crew has to remain in the cockpit for their alert period and half to be off the deck in 5 mins if an alert is called. Now I'm not sure if those F-15s were armed or not.
 
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Okay so I'm reading the 9/11 Commisison Report and they're talking about how the two alert F-15's were scrammbled from Otis AFB.

My question is this: How long does it take to get a fighter off the ground (roughly)? I mean obviously the pilot wouldn't do an entire pre-flight, but can they really just jump in a go?

Just curious.

Thanks.

Naunga

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Air Defense alert jets are usually "cocked" at a certain response level (Alert 5/10/15/30), etc; the numbers denoting the minutes from call to launch expected of the jets. Cocked means that they're not only preflighted, but (if required), their systems are aligned, etc. So all that needs to be done, is for the crews to run out to the plane, which isn't far since the plane is parked in the "alert barn" which itself is connected to the living facilities for the crews, much like a large fire station; get engines started, get weapons pins and chocks pulled, and off they go.

So, if jets were on an alert 15 or 30 (fairly standard), they have that much time to get the word and get airborne.

There's many more available aircraft on a daily basis performing normal training than just NORADs alert birds. At Tyndall AFB, FL there is the standard few F-16s for air defense alert. But Tyndall also trains F-15C Eagle pilots, so there's three squadrons of F-15s (whose sole mission is air-air) with aircraft airborne at all hours of the day and night on training hops, and which can be easily-re-tasked per request of ATC if the situation warrants it, prior to higher approval (ie- in an ATC emergency).

Order of battle for Air Defense jets that day consisted of these units listed below. The top units are still AD units. The rest (F-16 units) were at one time dedicated to ADF, but have since converted to a "general purpose" mission (ie- dropping bombs), due to the post-cold war drawdown. These GP squadrons still maintain an alert det, but not all of the rest of their fighters sit armed/ready on the ramp dedicated to ADF.

Here's a further breakdown for those interested:

Dedicated ADF:

102 FW, Otis: F-15A/B
119 FW, Hector: F-16A/ADF
144 FW, Fresno: F-16A/ADF
148 FW, Duluth: F-16A/ADF
125 FW, Jacksonville, F-15A/B

General Purpose (former ADF):

120 FW, Great Falls: F-16C/D
142 FW, Portland: F-15A/B (air-air only)
147 FW, Ellington: F-16C/D
158 FW, Burlington: F-16C/D
 
Thanks guys.

Blows my mind reading that report, and I'm just 30 some pages into it.

NORAD, specifically NEADS only had about 9 minutes of warning from the FAA regarding a second plane.

So if as you say those planes were on alert 15 or 30 there was no way that they could've intercepted the airliner in time to do any good.

Scary [expletive deleted].

Thanks again guys for info.

Naunga
 
Man I hated alert. The alarm would sound at the worst possible times. We had a gym at the alert facility, and the worst time for it to go off was at the end of a workout. Sweating your butt off, then having to put on a flight suit really really sucks!!!
 
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Thanks guys.

Blows my mind reading that report, and I'm just 30 some pages into it.

NORAD, specifically NEADS only had about 9 minutes of warning from the FAA regarding a second plane.

So if as you say those planes were on alert 15 or 30 there was no way that they could've intercepted the airliner in time to do any good.

Scary [expletive deleted].

Thanks again guys for info.

Naunga

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One thing that needs to be considered was that these alert aircraft were designed to be "pointed outward" in order to intercept an intruder entering US airspace from offshore. At that time, they weren't optimized to very quickly respond to internal threats, though they have in a number of cases. Four cases that come to mind:

Payne Stewart: When his Lear went astray in 1999, the first aircraft dispatched were 2 A-10s departing from Eglin AFB, as well as an F-16 from Eglin that was already airborne. As the situation progressed, F-16s from Oklahoma and North Dakota joined in the escort duties, as well as a Kansas ANG KC-135.

Thomas Root: Lawyer that went unconscious in his C-210 in 1986 in Florida. Was intercepted by F-15s and C-130s and followed until his plane ditched itself into the Atlantic. HC-130s dropped pararescue guys to the wreckage where they found Root with a gunshot wound in the cockpit as it was sinking. They rescued him from there quickly.

Bo Rein: The up and coming LSU football coach was in a Cessna 441 that lost cabin pressurization (assumed) in 1980. 441 cruised east, climbing up to nearly FL 400 and was intercepted by USAF F-4s and F-106s, who followed the aircraft in the darkness out into the Atlantic, where it finally crashed far offshore with no survivors.

DB Cooper: 1971 hijacker of the Northwest Orient 727. During the hijack, was followed by USAF F-106s from McChord AFB, WA. Pilots flying radar trail never saw him bail from the 727. Cooper remains on the loose to this day, having last been seen getting a parachute on and heading to the aft airstairs of the 727 where he later parachuted from.
 
One thing people also fail to remember is that these guys were no run-of-the-mill amateurs. These guys were professionals. By "professionals", I mean that they didn't do ANY part of this operation half-assed. It was devised, planned, revised, with primary and very probable backup planning. In addition to all the planning, there were multiple groups to be planned for. With the multiple groups to be planned for, there was the coordination needed to bring the multiple groups together at the same general timeframe.....and that's even with ALL the variables that can happen then (flight delays, etc).

9/11 was about as brilliant an operation as one could pull off. I obviously don't in any way support what was done; but ANYONE who doesn't recognize the near-perfection of everything that led up to this.....from the planning to the coordination to the taking advantage of both current security measures as well as the "thought process of hijackings" at that time in the USA.....ANYONE that fails to give the op the credit it's due, is plain ignorant, or too full of pride.
 
Which is also why I think that there will never be another September 11. They are smart. They know that we will never assume that another hijacked plane is going anywhere but the side of a landmark.

They're on to the next trick, and all our obsession with pocket knives, box cutters, and shoes is going to be wasted.
 
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Which is also why I think that there will never be another September 11. They are smart. They know that we will never assume that another hijacked plane is going anywhere but the side of a landmark.

They're on to the next trick, and all our obsession with pocket knives, box cutters, and shoes is going to be wasted.

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I agree. Of course we have to make sure we don't get to complacent, in the eyes of a terrorist getting shot down over Manhattan and having a 767 fall to the ground and kill hundreds potentially thousands on the ground might be almost as good as flying into a building. From reading the 9/11 report it seemed that the terrorists who seized UAL93 were not too disappointed that they couldn’t make Washington, in my opinion they were just as happy to only kill the passengers on board.
 
Supposedly the pax of UA93 never made it into the cockpit of the 767, according to the Commission report.
 
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Supposedly the pax of UA93 never made it into the cockpit of the 767, according to the Commission report.

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Correct. What I was pointing out was that the terrorist did not seem to be upset or even overly concerned about making Washington. Killing the passengers was enough for them. When one of the hijackers said “Is that it? I mean shall we put it down?” The other didn’t reply, no we have to make Washington, he replied “Yes, put it in it and pull it down”

I was just responding to the earlier post by Tony trying to point out that while I dislike the TSA as much as anybody, killing the passengers was good enough for them, so we shouldn’t get too lapse on security, because if we do they will do it again. Not because they think they could actually fly a 767 into the Capital Building, they would have to know that they would be shot down before making it to Washington, but they would still be able to kill the passengers and maybe some people on the ground when it debris fell to earth. So we have to remain vigilant and keep stringent security.
 
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Supposedly the pax of UA93 never made it into the cockpit of the 767, according to the Commission report.

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Correct. What I was pointing out was that the terrorist did not seem to be upset or even overly concerned about making Washington. Killing the passengers was enough for them. When one of the hijackers said “Is that it? I mean shall we put it down?” The other didn’t reply, no we have to make Washington, he replied “Yes, put it in it and pull it down”

I was just responding to the earlier post by Tony trying to point out that while I dislike the TSA as much as anybody, killing the passengers was good enough for them, so we shouldn’t get too lapse on security, because if we do they will do it again. Not because they think they could actually fly a 767 into the Capital Building, they would have to know that they would be shot down before making it to Washington, but they would still be able to kill the passengers and maybe some people on the ground when it debris fell to earth. So we have to remain vigilant and keep stringent security.

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Agree, and good points.
 
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I was just responding to the earlier post by Tony trying to point out that while I dislike the TSA as much as anybody, killing the passengers was good enough for them, so we shouldn’t get too lapse on security, because if we do they will do it again. Not because they think they could actually fly a 767 into the Capital Building, they would have to know that they would be shot down before making it to Washington, but they would still be able to kill the passengers and maybe some people on the ground when it debris fell to earth. So we have to remain vigilant and keep stringent security.

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No question there. We do have to pay attention to what's going on and not allow weapons on planes, but we also need to think outside the box. Our enemy is. They're going to be looking for ways to attack us that were as (and I hate to use this word) innovative as September 11 was. We need to try to anticipate those attacks instead of fighting the last war.

It's a tough job, but we need to do it, do it right, and do it in a way that doesn't destroy the civil liberties that are part of the American way of life.

Tough balancing act!
 
So hear is a question that opens a can of worms... I keep hearing more and more people talk about selaing the cockpit off entirely. What are you guys thougths on an eventual possibility of these guys getting into the cockpit by actually learning all phases of flight and becoming airline pilots. Of course that is the long road but it isn't too far to consider, that all it would take was jumpseating in the cockpit by a regional guy or something and bam, they are in and now no one can stop them. It isn't even that long a road. I am sure Alqueda could afford gulfstream... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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Air Defense alert jets are usually "cocked" at a certain response level (Alert 5/10/15/30), etc; the numbers denoting the minutes from call to launch expected of the jets. Cocked means that they're not only preflighted, but (if required), their systems are aligned, etc. So all that needs to be done, is for the crews to run out to the plane, which isn't far since the plane is parked in the "alert barn" which itself is connected to the living facilities for the crews, much like a large fire station; get engines started, get weapons pins and chocks pulled, and off they go.



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Hey Mike, are there ever cases anymore where they sit on the ramp, crew in situ and engines turning? I have a buddy who told me about sitting his duty time in a BUFF on the runway all engines lit just waiting for a green light. This was during the Cuban Missile Crisis. He said he's never been so uptight in his whole life. And I can imagine.
 
Shooter, I honestly think that they're on to the next trick. The airplane trick has been done, so they'll do something else.

Seriously, if you want to take down an airplane, there are easier ways to do it than to hijack it. And there are far more effective ways to kill people than blowing up an airplane.

Timothy McVeigh showed people what you can do with a Ryder truck, a little fertilizer, and diesel and more than 150 people died. It's a lot easier to do that than it is to hijack an airplane.
 
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Air Defense alert jets are usually "cocked" at a certain response level (Alert 5/10/15/30), etc; the numbers denoting the minutes from call to launch expected of the jets. Cocked means that they're not only preflighted, but (if required), their systems are aligned, etc. So all that needs to be done, is for the crews to run out to the plane, which isn't far since the plane is parked in the "alert barn" which itself is connected to the living facilities for the crews, much like a large fire station; get engines started, get weapons pins and chocks pulled, and off they go.



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Hey Mike, are there ever cases anymore where they sit on the ramp, crew in situ and engines turning? I have a buddy who told me about sitting his duty time in a BUFF on the runway all engines lit just waiting for a green light. This was during the Cuban Missile Crisis. He said he's never been so uptight in his whole life. And I can imagine.

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Only if there's a specific threat and the "higher ups" are gathering last bits of info. This would normally be an Alert 5 posture, or something close. Last time it was done in continental US (for real) was, I believe, probably the Cuban crisis.
 
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