Question for freight dogs flying the Chieftain...

wrxpilot

wrxpilot

New Member
I'm flying a chieftain for some charter work now, and I'm curious to know what techniques you guys use for slam dunk approaches. During my training, I was told to always reduce power about 1"/min to avoid shock cooling. This can be kind of difficult in the real world though, where ATC wants you to keep max forward speed up to the marker, etc.

So what do you guys do? I'm sure Airnet/Ameriflight wants to take care of those engines, but I can't imagine you guys are slowing down when you're still 10 minutes out...
 
Technique that works in Baron, is to pull power back 1"/min as recommended, while descending high speed. When 1.1 miles from the marker, pull up and start a little climb, flaps down...

Also for taking care of the engine, its the first few inches, the initial power reduction, that matters the most. Once you've lost the first 50-75 CHT, its not going to cool much more until its shut off. So once you're at the marker, you can pull the power back even more, and not have to worry about the 1"/min.
 
We use the slight climb technique also to get within flap extension speed. Our chieftan pilots pulls 2" every two minutes. If necessary they pull 1"/min and stuff really gets out of hand they can pull 1"/30 secs. Usually once you get to 18" you're good to pull it back as far as you like.

Remember you can only do what you can do. Sometimes you'll have to tell ATC that you can't do 180kts to the numbers.:)

Oh yeah,

I'll add that we plan pulls as if we're flying 3 miles a minute. So you'd be making a pull every six miles. It actually worked out pretty well for me.
 
Pull an inch a minute while shooting a 4 to one descent. Trend a little flat initially and then steepen it up as the power comes off to catch up with the descent. Level at one grand or pattern drop flaps and gear. So long as you are visual and don't have pax to worry about, the thing will drop like a brick after gear extension. The true airspeeds are nice up high and will help you keep it going in the descent as well. Keep track of the temps, you want to be nice to those engines, but normally they stabilize by the time you hit around 23in, lower power makes little difference in engine cooling. Just always be smooth and gentle on power changes.
 
I really can't remember the flap speed for AMF on the chieftain. But 2" every min as prev mentioned. What was very tough was the really slow Vle speed on the chieftain I think 125 or 120, this is AMF not POH. The gear doors were the reason why. And don't forget to just let the mother sit and idle after landing also.
I enjoyed the Chieftain hated the pile of chit ho's. It can be a really busy plane sometimes.

Don't be afraid to ask for delayed vectors if you need them to cool'em down
 
The 'ho's pretty draggy, so I try to descend fast on the arrivals. The speed builds up but seems to bleed off just as fast.

I'm not a fan of the "climb/flaps" technique. I've just always tried to be on speed/power/configuration at the appropriate time (1"/min.). A really nice thing about the chieftain is that it slows down well...you can toss out approach flaps and descend on the glide slope to get gear out at the appropriate time........and then start adding more flaps. Next thing you know, you're at DH, configured, on speed, power stable, on GS and LOC.

If ATC wants something I can't do, I just tell 'em. Frequently (at least in the Baron) I'll be asked to maintain 170 to the marker and I tell them "I need 150 at the marker but I'll go fast as long as I can". ATC doesn't know what you can do unless you tell 'em.

-mini
 
minitour said:
The 'ho's pretty draggy, so I try to descend fast on the arrivals. The speed builds up but seems to bleed off just as fast.

I'm not a fan of the "climb/flaps" technique. I've just always tried to be on speed/power/configuration at the appropriate time (1"/min.). A really nice thing about the chieftain is that it slows down well...you can toss out approach flaps and descend on the glide slope to get gear out at the appropriate time........and then start adding more flaps. Next thing you know, you're at DH, configured, on speed, power stable, on GS and LOC.

If ATC wants something I can't do, I just tell 'em. Frequently (at least in the Baron) I'll be asked to maintain 170 to the marker and I tell them "I need 150 at the marker but I'll go fast as long as I can". ATC doesn't know what you can do unless you tell 'em.

-mini
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What is "fast" to you on the arrivals?

The reason I ask is because in *most* of the 'Jos I fly you can't have more than 30" and 500fpm without topping the green arc. While the plane is draggy to be sure, it also picks up speed quick in a decent when clean. On some days and in some planes 30" won't get more than 200fpm without topping the green arc.

So unless I fly some f-ed up Jo's, what do you guys do when given a decent clearance while at cruise? 32" ain't gonna cut it on a bumpy day, and it will take 9 miles to get to 30".

To the OP: Like the others said, "unable" is your friend. Just did it yesterday. ROC kept me high then gave me a visual approach clearance on top of the field. I had to much power in because I thought they were putting me on an extended downwind. And, the controller told me to make a short approach! It's pretty easy to "unable" something like that.

EDIT: Anyone know the "official" answer as to what MP setting that the 1"/min doesn't matter anymore? I think someone said 18" above? From a 33" cruise that means starting your reduction 45 miles from the field!
 
Ian J said:
EDIT: Anyone know the "official" answer as to what MP setting that the 1"/min doesn't matter anymore? I think someone said 18" above? From a 33" cruise that means starting your reduction 45 miles from the field!
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I think AMF's is 18" or 1525 EGT(?) whichever came first. I've been off the chieftan for a while now and can't remember. I can tell you that it can be one of the toughest aircraft to slow down because the company's Vlo/Vle is 125kts. And you can't start putting flaps in until after the gear is down unless it's really necessary. So you'll need every bit of 36 miles or so if you're cheating on the power settings. If you're using the company approved power setting it will take you about 18 miles.
 
I've never seen a number as to when the power reduction doesn't matter for airnet. But 90 some percent of the airnet fleet will not really cool below 280-310 on the cylinders so when you get there your pretty safe. Of course that number can be slightly higher or lower depending on summer vs winter but it doesn't vary much. Just pay attention to the idle temps at the end of your first leg and use those as a baseline to shoot for from then on. I always found a more shallow descent initially (maybe 600) picking up as you went on to around a 1300 worker really well a milking speed out of the descent. If the issue is you need to be fast on the approach more than in the descent then wait an extra mile for each thouseand foot up you are over a 4/1.

For example I know I need to be fast in 15 to 5 out area and I have 9 to lose, I'll start my descent at 27 (9 times 4 for 36 normal, then take 9 off to keep the airspeed up closer in). When you descend and where you pull power are two separte issues though. Choose descent point based on overall time to the threshold need, speed required for traffic on app, and wind. Determine power pull point by the MP you want to reach, then figure your time backward. If you want 10 min, then pull power at around 10 plus two for the slow down.

If you are high on approach always level the sucker out and drop everything. It will come down quick enough at 153 with 25 flap ang gear to make up for the level off time. Try not to ever pull so much power off the props go flat until in the flare, its really hard on the engines. And of course always be willing to say unable, but the chieftan can do a lot with a little experience and technique.
 
Also watch the tail in cruise compared to diff cg positions. If the elevator and stab aren't in trim during cruise you'll lose about 10 knots. That will add more drag than moving the cg forward so aft cg isn't always best in a navajo, although they land a lot nicer that way.
 
At Airnet, our company cruise setting is 33" MP. I usually stop doing an inch a minute pull at 25" since the CHT is usually stabilized a few inches before that. I usually start pulling the power back at 8 minutes and it works out fine for a visual approach with a descent from 5-6 thousand feet. I use the speed in the descent to counteract losing airspeed from the reduced power setting. Even if you have to level off for a bit it takes a while for the thing to slow down completley. As stated before, the navajo is pretty slick in a descent so if you are able to keep the thing in a descent until a few miles from the airport you can level out to lose airspeed so you can meet your flap and gear speeds. I try to arrest my descent at 1000 agl 3 miles from the airport. I'm usually at 170-180 and let the thing slow down in the level off to the flap speed (162) which will add the drag so can start the final descent and lose the airspeed simultaneously for the gear (153). Then its easy to slow the plane down to the full flap speed even in a descent. If you get a slam dunk approach and the cylinders are already cooled down the navajo will really fall out of the sky with 15 degrees of flaps and the gear down. I'm still amazed at how much of a pitch down attitude I can have with approach flaps and gear out along with about 23" of power and the airspeed will still bleed off. Hope this helps.
 
flyguydaniel said:
At Airnet, our company cruise setting is 33" MP. I usually stop doing an inch a minute pull at 25" since the CHT is usually stabilized a few inches before that. I usually start pulling the power back at 8 minutes and it works out fine for a visual approach with a descent from 5-6 thousand feet. I use the speed in the descent to counteract losing airspeed from the reduced power setting. Even if you have to level off for a bit it takes a while for the thing to slow down completley. As stated before, the navajo is pretty slick in a descent so if you are able to keep the thing in a descent until a few miles from the airport you can level out to lose airspeed so you can meet your flap and gear speeds. I try to arrest my descent at 1000 agl 3 miles from the airport. I'm usually at 170-180 and let the thing slow down in the level off to the flap speed (162) which will add the drag so can start the final descent and lose the airspeed simultaneously for the gear (153). Then its easy to slow the plane down to the full flap speed even in a descent. If you get a slam dunk approach and the cylinders are already cooled down the navajo will really fall out of the sky with 15 degrees of flaps and the gear down. I'm still amazed at how much of a pitch down attitude I can have with approach flaps and gear out along with about 23" of power and the airspeed will still bleed off. Hope this helps.
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:yeahthat: That was how i used to fly that thing. 1" min - 25" then treat it NA becuse you aren't really using the turbo at that point.
 
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